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C-5: Killed While Soliciting or Not?

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  • #46
    There was clearly an old boy network in Whitechapel at the time, hence the fact that the registrar who signed Polly Nichols’ death cert - John Hall - was also the local ‘horse coroner’ and should, in theory, have been keeping an eye on the activities at HB’s yard on the night she was killed.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
      It's spelt Horey, but it's pronounced "Throatwarbler-Mangrove" (© M Python)
      One of my favourite sketches . .Raymond Luxury Yacht :-)

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
        Paul,

        Booth’s usage may have been different, but the use of street walking/walker to mean soliciting/prostitute was very much in use in Victorian times.

        Gary
        Gary,
        Sorry, I know. I didn't mean to suggest that it wasn't, only that Booth used it throughout in a different way.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Paul View Post
          Which is why Keith Skinner was so determined to have personal comments taken out of the last revision of the A to Z and have them replaced, whenever possible, with a direct quote or at the very least a reference to the original source. It is surprisingly easy when writing a precis to interpret a meaning - as was shown recently with the use of walking the streets in Booth's Darkest England having an entirely different meaning to how we interpret the term today.
          Yes, that seems to be the best way to go, even if only to avoid having people unfamiliar with recognising actual source material over an information summary by an author, getting the wrong end of the stick.

          Weren't both of these types of street walking covered in the Vagrants amendment Act? Both classed as 'Vagrancy' and a guide given to try and leave the word 'prostitute' out of things? I forget now. I may also have the wrong end of the stick here! Maybe it's even been mentioned already...I'm waffling.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
            Debs,

            The order in which it is reported suggests Holland’s attempt to persuade Polly to return with her came before Polly said she had no money.

            And that is confirmed by Polly saying that she will back at Holland’s house before long - which suggests she still needed to earn the money for her night’s doss.

            Gary
            That's an interesting point, Gary.
            I thought that events were being recapped later on in the questioning but you could be right.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Jon Simons View Post
              Be very careful how you pronounce Horey, Debs
              Don`t want to upset anyone !!
              It's okay, where I live a lot of people pronounce the upsetting word as though it begin with a 'oo' so no one in my immediate vicinity need be offended

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              • #52
                Thanks for the picture of Mr Horey's house Gareth.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Paul View Post
                  Gary,
                  Sorry, I know. I didn't mean to suggest that it wasn't, only that Booth used it throughout in a different way.
                  The same section of The Five also cites Howard Goldsmid (Dottings of a Dosser) in support of the more literal meaning of "walking the streets", saying:

                  "According to Howard Goldsmid, this was a common way of life for those who frequented the lodging houses on Thrawl Street, Dorset Street and Flower and Dean Street. When not lying 'on the kerbstone, in the gutters, on heaps of rubbish, anywhere', they could be seen walking 'up and down with their hands in their pockets'..." (The Five, pp356/7)

                  However, what Goldsmid says is that these particular street-walkers were actually to be found IN the aforementioned streets, and streets like them as opposed, presumably, to way-out places like Bucks Row or Mitre Square, which contained no lodging houses. The relevant part of Dottings of a Dosser, Chapter VII, says:

                  "Thrawl Street, Flower and Dean Street, Dorset Street, Parker Street [*], and similar thoroughfares, are, night after night, thronged with 'dossers' who have no money for a night's shelter. They lie on the kerbstone, in the gutters, on heaps of rubbish, anywhere; or walk up and down with their hands in their pockets..."

                  It's probable that John Kelly's worrying about Kate walking the streets was indeed of the innuendo-free variety, and his clarification of his statement supports this: "Well, Sir, many a time we have not had the money to pay for our shelter, and have had to tramp about". I have no problem whatsoever with taking John Kelly's clarification at face value; indeed, why should I not? Just thought I'd make that clear. No, the reason I'm writing this is to point out that what Goldsmid actually said differs, arguably importantly, from how it reads in The Five.
                  [*] Parker Street is in the West End off Drury Lane, and was known for its lodging houses and slum dwellings in the Late Victorian Period. A "model" lodging-house was opened there in 1903, many years after Goldsmid wrote Dottings of a Dosser.
                  Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                  "Suche Nullen"
                  (F. Nietzsche)

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                  • #54
                    It is interesting to revisit Pollyś conversation with Holland. In one way it sounded like the latter would share her bed with Polly but I have wondered before if Polly would have had to pay half, etc., etc.. Polly did not like the place where she had been staying, her friend offered to share a bed at a different location but Polly did not have the money. That is an important bit of clarification. Maybe also Holland needed Pollyś help to pay for a bed. Point to ponder.
                    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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                    • #55
                      For me, it's more so a question of....does it matter? I don't mean to sound indifferent, and there's a decent argument to be made for either side. We're talking specifically about the nights of their deaths, but what about in the overall scheme of their lives? Nobody so far as i'm aware is trying to degrade these women by saying that they acted as prostitutes. It's simply a fact that so many of them and others like them had to resort to those means in order to have food, shelter and a drink at the time in which they lived. You did what you had to do in order to survive. I'm not a fan of this revisionist, modern take on it at all.

                      Cheers,
                      Adam.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Adam Went View Post
                        For me, it's more so a question of....does it matter? I don't mean to sound indifferent, and there's a decent argument to be made for either side. We're talking specifically about the nights of their deaths, but what about in the overall scheme of their lives? Nobody so far as i'm aware is trying to degrade these women by saying that they acted as prostitutes. It's simply a fact that so many of them and others like them had to resort to those means in order to have food, shelter and a drink at the time in which they lived. You did what you had to do in order to survive. I'm not a fan of this revisionist, modern take on it at all.

                        Cheers,
                        Adam.
                        None of those thoughts were in my mind when I started this thread. Like I said I am not terribly interested at this time in who was JtR but a different pattern from ´killed while soliciting´might lead us to new information.

                        Beyond how and why did these women connect to the killer, was there some other angle we could learn about? Pizer was accused of roughing up unfortunates. Why? Did he sometimes lend them money and was that how he collected? Pizer was not JtR and does not seem to be involved in these cases but were there other men who had contacts with women on the street, who filled certain needs like providing a place to sleep or loaning a few pennies?

                        While I do not think Polly, Annie or Kate would have been considered as targets for robbery, remember that Emma Smith was robbed or simply attacked by a gang as she told it. What else was going on besides unfortunates and clients? There might be a lot more we can learn.
                        The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                          The same section of The Five also cites Howard Goldsmid (Dottings of a Dosser) in support of the more literal meaning of "walking the streets", saying:

                          "According to Howard Goldsmid, this was a common way of life for those who frequented the lodging houses on Thrawl Street, Dorset Street and Flower and Dean Street. When not lying 'on the kerbstone, in the gutters, on heaps of rubbish, anywhere', they could be seen walking 'up and down with their hands in their pockets'..." (The Five, pp356/7)

                          However, what Goldsmid says is that these particular street-walkers were actually to be found IN the aforementioned streets, and streets like them as opposed, presumably, to way-out places like Bucks Row or Mitre Square, which contained no lodging houses. The relevant part of Dottings of a Dosser, Chapter VII, says:

                          "Thrawl Street, Flower and Dean Street, Dorset Street, Parker Street [*], and similar thoroughfares, are, night after night, thronged with 'dossers' who have no money for a night's shelter. They lie on the kerbstone, in the gutters, on heaps of rubbish, anywhere; or walk up and down with their hands in their pockets..."

                          It's probable that John Kelly's worrying about Kate walking the streets was indeed of the innuendo-free variety, and his clarification of his statement supports this: "Well, Sir, many a time we have not had the money to pay for our shelter, and have had to tramp about". I have no problem whatsoever with taking John Kelly's clarification at face value; indeed, why should I not? Just thought I'd make that clear. No, the reason I'm writing this is to point out that what Goldsmid actually said differs, arguably importantly, from how it reads in The Five.
                          [*] Parker Street is in the West End off Drury Lane, and was known for its lodging houses and slum dwellings in the Late Victorian Period. A "model" lodging-house was opened there in 1903, many years after Goldsmid wrote Dottings of a Dosser.
                          Whichever way you look at it the crime scene locations and the photos we still have do not support her suggestion that the victims were killed while sleeping rough on the streets where there bodies were found. The doctors all state they were killed where they were found.

                          If she is correct, where were all the other unfortunates that were supposed to be sleeping rough on the streets, none in Mitre Sq/Bucks Row, or Berner Street or did these women specifically look for locations to sleep where no one else was sleeping rough ! I dont think so !!!!!!!!!

                          www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
                            If she is correct, where were all the other unfortunates that were supposed to be sleeping rough on the streets, none in Mitre Sq/Bucks Row, or Berner Street or did these women specifically look for locations to sleep where no one else was sleeping rough ! I dont think so !!!!!!!!!
                            Exactly. Those sites simply weren't very likely locations for sleeping rough, and that's without considering the rainy weather which made Dutfield's Yard and Mitre Square even less conducive to sleep on the night of the Double Event. Certainly, there's nothing in Goldsmid's book to support the argument, as Goldsmid's examples refer specifically to people sleeping/hanging-out in those streets with a high concentration of doss-houses. Neither Bucks Row, Hanbury Street, Berner Street nor Mitre Square remotely fit into this category.
                            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                            "Suche Nullen"
                            (F. Nietzsche)

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                            • #59
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                              • #60
                                When I was fairly new around here I suggested some of the women were sleeping rough and it was explained to me why this was not the case. The reasons against this were strong and factual.

                                I still think not all the women were soliciting when killed and the importance of this, if true, would be the motive for the crimes and what attracted then set off the killer. There was no evidence of sexual activity of any kind, not even a solo performance, in any of these cases. In four of the C-5, abdominal wounds could point toward a sexual motive but it could be something else. The abdominal slashes remind me of gutting a fish. I am not going to go into whether or not organs were taken.

                                Someone awhile ago posted some information on postmortem mutilation and a motive was something like curiosity, finding out what was inside. One post made by Gergely about mutilation of a woman´s corpse without murder involved, had the perpetrator saying he did not know why he did it. It sounded like the man had built up frustrations concerning the woman who had died of natural causes and had been laid out prior to burial.
                                The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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