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C-5: Killed While Soliciting or Not?

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  • #61
    Emily Holland saw Mary Ann Nichols at approx. 2:30 am and described her as "very drunk and staggered against the wall."
    If we also consider that she was likely also tired as well, I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to consider that she may have either sat down for a brief rest or even simply fell down in front of the gate in Buck's Row.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Matt Hood View Post
      Emily Holland saw Mary Ann Nichols at approx. 2:30 am and described her as "very drunk and staggered against the wall."
      If we also consider that she was likely also tired as well, I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to consider that she may have either sat down for a brief rest or even simply fell down in front of the gate in Buck's Row.
      Why there, though, on a public pavement and in the open air? Were there no porches, archways, passageways, bridges, sheds or other covered places in the whole of Whitechapel? Were there no benches on which to sit or lie down? (Rhetorical questions.)
      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

      "Suche Nullen"
      (F. Nietzsche)

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
        Why there, though, on a public pavement and in the open air? Were there no porches, archways, passageways, bridges, sheds or other covered places in the whole of Whitechapel? Were there no benches to sit or lie out on? (Rhetorical questions.)
        She's drunk and tired. Her judgement was impaired. People have made far more stupid decisions under the influence than taking a brief rest in the street up against a closed gate.

        Plus, I think it more likely that she simply collapsed due to her impaired condition. She pushed on walking for longer than she could really manage and it caught up with her.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Matt Hood View Post
          She's drunk and tired. Her judgement was impaired. People have made far more stupid decisions under the influence than taking a brief rest in the street up against a closed gate.

          Plus, I think it more likely that she simply collapsed due to her impaired condition. She pushed on walking for longer than she could really manage and it caught up with her.
          Of course, she wasn't found up against the gate, she was found lying on her back in front of the gate. And the witness Harriet Lilley heard whispering and moaning in the street, so more than one person was seemingly awake in that dark and otherwise deserted back street in the wee small hours.

          Perhaps they were whispering so as not to wake Polly up.😉

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
            Of course, she wasn't found up against the gate, she was found lying on her back in front of the gate. And the witness Harriet Lilley heard whispering and moaning in the street, so more than one person was seemingly awake in that dark and otherwise deserted back street in the wee small hours.

            Perhaps they were whispering so as not to wake Polly up.😉
            The scenario I'm suggesting is that the Ripper found her, awake and drunk or unconscious, against the gate and he strangled her there and then moved her to do the knife work.

            As for the whispering, if the killer found her awake then surely her asking for money or offering some trade covers that?

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            • #66
              I seem to remember reading somewhere that rough sleepers tended to congregate....for safety perhhaps. In hay sheds and the like.

              It just seems odd that a rough sleeper would seek somewhere isolated and where they are in a super vulnerable position for rape, robbery or whatever.

              P

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Matt Hood View Post
                The scenario I'm suggesting is that the Ripper found her, awake and drunk or unconscious, against the gate and he strangled her there and then moved her to do the knife work.

                As for the whispering, if the killer found her awake then surely her asking for money or offering some trade covers that?
                Lilley lived two doors from the stable yard and claimed she heard the whispering below her window.

                Of course, your scenario is possible, but when you consider the evidence of the Thrawl Street women that Polly was an 'unfortunate', and the possibility that Lilley heard her in conversation with someone some yards away from the stable door and that she also heard a 'painful moan - two or three faint gasps', it seems somewhat more likely that Polly went willingly to that dark spot for 'immoral purposes'.

                Perhaps she didn't - there are all sorts of conceivable scenarios.

                I remember AP Wolf once putting forward the idea that Polly might have been out soliciting, not for herself, but for a local brothel. At the time, I thought that was a silly idea, but having recently found evidence of there being a brothel in Baker's Row, I'm reconsidering the possibility.

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                • #68
                  I find it hard to believe that Polly didn't give HB's yard a try.

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                  • #69
                    Kate did have shelter .
                    All she had to do was what most drunk people would do lying in a dry Bishopsgate cell.
                    Stop singing , asking the time and asking to be released and just roll over and go back to sleep .
                    She was determined to be released and I don't think it was to look for a quick penny or two or to curl up and sleep in the rain in mitre square
                    You can lead a horse to water....

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Packers Stem View Post
                      Kate did have shelter .
                      All she had to do was what most drunk people would do lying in a dry Bishopsgate cell.
                      Stop singing , asking the time and asking to be released and just roll over and go back to sleep .
                      She was determined to be released and I don't think it was to look for a quick penny or two or to curl up and sleep in the rain in mitre square
                      And why go back to somewhere where she knew she would be roused by a City copper every 15 mins?

                      Surely the reason she returned to where she had been arrested must have had something to do with why she was there earlier in the evening.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                        And why go back to somewhere where she knew she would be roused by a City copper every 15 mins?

                        Surely the reason she returned to where she had been arrested must have had something to do with why she was there earlier in the evening.
                        I agree Gary
                        You can lead a horse to water....

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                        • #72
                          Now picture this scenario Gary .
                          She attends the pre arranged meet in Aldgate and is escorted to an empty house in Mitre Square .
                          Think 'Jack the Hat' with the Krays
                          You can lead a horse to water....

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Packers Stem View Post
                            Now picture this scenario Gary .
                            She attends the pre arranged meet in Aldgate and is escorted to an empty house in Mitre Square .
                            Think 'Jack the Hat' with the Krays
                            Was any blood found in the empty house or between it and where Kate’s body was found?

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                            • #74
                              It always seemed like Kate had a purpose in mind after she got out of jail but it is hard to put together. She had gotten extremely drunk earlier, been detained, and who would she be meeting at the time when she got out? For what purpose?

                              We could wonder if she had been partially paid for a job of some kind and if she had used that money to buy drink, quickly becoming drunk and subsequently detained. Was she unable to complete a job for which she had been paid?

                              We could also wonder if JtR´s method of hunting was to offer jobs rather than sexual encounters. The C-5 were unfortunates, not professional prostitutes.* Might something other than sex for a few coins have drawn them away with Jack? I have suggested earlier that maybe some of the women knew a man they could go to for help if they were in desperate need. I do not have any clear ideas about this but as I mentioned before, some of us are interested in a JtR who limped or had difficulty walking.

                              *(If a woman was truly an unfortunate, selling sex only when desperate, would men have approached her just because she was walking down the street? Unless she was trying to sell herself, wouldn´t she have needed to approach possible customers? It has been pointed out in other threads that professional prostitutes dressed or acted in certain ways to attract customers. I would think women like Polly and Annie would have tried to get friendly with men in a pub or leaving a pub. I could imagine the women asking the man for a ´treat´ which seemed to mean drink and he concluded business by asking the woman to ´walk with´ him.)

                              When I was a young women, tough little teenage girls where I lived knew they could trade small amounts of work or sometimes sex acts, with several very old, crippled men in town. What the girls got in return were cigarettes and alcohol. The girls knew they could go to these men if they needed anything, including a place to stay.

                              Ted Bundy perfected the fake handicapped act to lure healthy young women to places of vulnerability but there is nothing new under the sun.
                              The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                                Was any blood found in the empty house or between it and where Kate’s body was found?
                                You say that as though you believe the house was searched .... any evidence that they were on the day ?
                                Yards etc were searched I believe .
                                As for blood , have a look how close the shutters were to the spot .
                                No guarantee that blood should drip carrying a body a couple of feet .
                                It was dark Gary .... and wet.
                                A drop of blood could easily be missed had there been one or two but there didn't need to be any
                                You can lead a horse to water....

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