C-5: Killed While Soliciting or Not?

[Sam Flynn]

Gary,
Sorry, I know. I didn't mean to suggest that it wasn't, only that Booth used it throughout in a different way.

The same section of The Five also cites Howard Goldsmid (Dottings of a Dosser) in support of the more literal meaning of "walking the streets", saying:

"According to Howard Goldsmid, this was a common way of life for those who frequented the lodging houses on Thrawl Street, Dorset Street and Flower and Dean Street. When not lying 'on the kerbstone, in the gutters, on heaps of rubbish, anywhere', they could be seen walking 'up and down with their hands in their pockets'..." (The Five, pp356/7)

However, what Goldsmid says is that these particular street-walkers were actually to be found IN the aforementioned streets, and streets like them as opposed, presumably, to way-out places like Bucks Row or Mitre Square, which contained no lodging houses. The relevant part of Dottings of a Dosser, Chapter VII, says:

"Thrawl Street, Flower and Dean Street, Dorset Street, Parker Street [*], and similar thoroughfares, are, night after night, thronged with 'dossers' who have no money for a night's shelter. They lie on the kerbstone, in the gutters, on heaps of rubbish, anywhere; or walk up and down with their hands in their pockets..."

It's probable that John Kelly's worrying about Kate walking the streets was indeed of the innuendo-free variety, and his clarification of his statement supports this: "Well, Sir, many a time we have not had the money to pay for our shelter, and have had to tramp about". I have no problem whatsoever with taking John Kelly's clarification at face value; indeed, why should I not? Just thought I'd make that clear. No, the reason I'm writing this is to point out that what Goldsmid actually said differs, arguably importantly, from how it reads in The Five.
[*] Parker Street is in the West End off Drury Lane, and was known for its lodging houses and slum dwellings in the Late Victorian Period. A "model" lodging-house was opened there in 1903, many years after Goldsmid wrote Dottings of a Dosser.

[Debra Arif]

Thanks for the picture of Mr Horey's house Gareth.

[Debra Arif]

Be very careful how you pronounce Horey, Debs
Don`t want to upset anyone !!

It's okay, where I live a lot of people pronounce the upsetting word as though it begin with a 'oo' so no one in my immediate vicinity need be offended

[Debra Arif]

Debs,

The order in which it is reported suggests Holland’s attempt to persuade Polly to return with her came before Polly said she had no money.

And that is confirmed by Polly saying that she will back at Holland’s house before long - which suggests she still needed to earn the money for her night’s doss.

Gary

That's an interesting point, Gary.
I thought that events were being recapped later on in the questioning but you could be right.

[Debra Arif]

Which is why Keith Skinner was so determined to have personal comments taken out of the last revision of the A to Z and have them replaced, whenever possible, with a direct quote or at the very least a reference to the original source. It is surprisingly easy when writing a precis to interpret a meaning - as was shown recently with the use of walking the streets in Booth's Darkest England having an entirely different meaning to how we interpret the term today.

Yes, that seems to be the best way to go, even if only to avoid having people unfamiliar with recognising actual source material over an information summary by an author, getting the wrong end of the stick.

Weren't both of these types of street walking covered in the Vagrants amendment Act? Both classed as 'Vagrancy' and a guide given to try and leave the word 'prostitute' out of things? I forget now. I may also have the wrong end of the stick here! Maybe it's even been mentioned already...I'm waffling.

[Paul]

Paul,

Booth’s usage may have been different, but the use of street walking/walker to mean soliciting/prostitute was very much in use in Victorian times.

Gary

Gary,
Sorry, I know. I didn't mean to suggest that it wasn't, only that Booth used it throughout in a different way.

[Jon Simons]

It's spelt Horey, but it's pronounced "Throatwarbler-Mangrove" (© M Python)

One of my favourite sketches . .Raymond Luxury Yacht :-)

[Gary Barnett]

There was clearly an old boy network in Whitechapel at the time, hence the fact that the registrar who signed Polly Nichols’ death cert - John Hall - was also the local ‘horse coroner’ and should, in theory, have been keeping an eye on the activities at HB’s yard on the night she was killed.

[Sam Flynn]

Be very careful how you pronounce Horey, Debs!

It's spelt Horey, but it's pronounced "Throatwarbler-Mangrove" (© M Python)

[Gary Barnett]

Which is why Keith Skinner was so determined to have personal comments taken out of the last revision of the A to Z and have them replaced, whenever possible, with a direct quote or at the very least a reference to the original source. It is surprisingly easy when writing a precis to interpret a meaning - as was shown recently with the use of walking the streets in Booth's Darkest England having an entirely different meaning to how we interpret the term today.

Paul,

Booth’s usage may have been different, but the use of street walking/walker to mean soliciting/prostitute was very much in use in Victorian times.

Gary

[Jon Simons]

Mr Horey's questioning of Emily Holland came up in the podcast because in 'The Five' it was said that Coroner Baxter was questioning Emily Holland.

I agree about Mr Horey's identification, as did Paul. I have found that inquest juries were normally taken from one or two streets on or around the inquest place.

Be very careful how you pronounce Horey, Debs
Don`t want to upset anyone !!

[Gary Barnett]

I presumed so, Gary. I was going by the report that Gareth just posted which I have seen before and found to be the fullest account and Emily said she tried to persuade Polly to go back with her, which sounded a pointless task if Polly still needed money to get a bed when she got there.

Debs,

The order in which it is reported suggests Holland’s attempt to persuade Polly to return with her came before Polly said she had no money.

And that is confirmed by Polly saying that she will back at Holland’s house before long - which suggests she still needed to earn the money for her night’s doss.

Gary

[Paul]

Gareth is absolutely right. The Casebook and Casebook wiki pages provide a summary of events the night of Polly's murder taken from various sources. This is why I mentioned that maybe we do need to take a look at how much personal interpretation has been added to the information 'we' present on the victims.

Which is why Keith Skinner was so determined to have personal comments taken out of the last revision of the A to Z and have them replaced, whenever possible, with a direct quote or at the very least a reference to the original source. It is surprisingly easy when writing a precis to interpret a meaning - as was shown recently with the use of walking the streets in Booth's Darkest England having an entirely different meaning to how we interpret the term today.

[Sam Flynn]

Mr Horey's questioning of Emily Holland came up in the podcast because in 'The Five' it was said that Coroner Baxter was questioning Emily Holland.

Indeed, Debs. Thanks for the reminder.

I agree about Mr Horey's identification, as did Paul.

I'm in good company, then! Assuming it hasn't been rebuilt since, Horey's house still stands as the right-hand half of 10-12 Whitechapel Road, under the blue arrow below:

[Debra Arif]

Debs/Gareth,

Was Holland offering a free bed for the night?

I presumed so, Gary. I was going by the report that Gareth just posted which I have seen before and found to be the fullest account and Emily said she tried to persuade Polly to go back with her, which sounded a pointless task if Polly still needed money to get a bed when she got there.