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C-5: Killed While Soliciting or Not?

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    Trevor Marriott
    Author & Researcher

  • Trevor Marriott
    replied
    Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
    Thanks, Trevor. I am not suggesting the women were sleeping in those places. (I once suggested something a little similar, it was fully discussed on the Forum and I saw where I was wrong in that theory.)

    Another plausible angle would be, for instance Polly and Annie, weary and penniless around 3:00 AM, sitting on steps or leaning against a wall somewhere when a man comes along and makes an offer. There are lots of possibilities.
    I dont believe these women were killed by a blitz attack in the first instance. The killer would have had to have some control of the situation. Simply accosting any woman in the street would be problematic because of the likelihood of them running away or screaming out, and in none of the case were screams heard.

    The women in my opinion were killed by having their throats cut in a way which suggests the killer was behind the victims. I also believe they were turning a trick with the killer, with them standing in an upright position against a fence or a wall and hitching their clothes up and leaning forward. thus giving the killer the element of surprise to cut the throats with the force needed to be able to almost decapitate some of them.

    I also dont subscribe to the belief that they were strangled first I did put questions to Dr Biggs on this issue below is the question and his answers, so I believe my original scenario is the more likely

    Q. The Doctors, in fact, do report that in some cases bruises were found around the victim’s throats and in the case of Annie Chapman her tongue was found to be protruding. Does this point to her being strangled first before her throat was cut?

    A. Strangulation can (and usually does) leave a bruise or bruises, but this is not always the case. Suffocation is perhaps less likely to result in bruising, but it would of course be possible. So the presence or absence of bruising around the neck does not either prove or exclude strangulation / suffocation.

    A swollen tongue and / or face are findings that are non-specific. Many people try to attribute such findings to particular causations, but often it means nothing as a variety of mechanisms (natural and unnatural) can result in the same appearance. There is also no guarantee that somebody’s description of a ‘swollen’ tongue or face represents genuine swelling, as appearances of bodies after death can appear peculiar to observers and prompt all sorts of not-necessarily-objective descriptions.

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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  • Anna Morris
    Registered User

  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
    Anna
    Plan B would no doubt be to find somewhere to sleep, but In my opinion would not amount to just lying down on a footpath in a street. I am sure these women knew locations where others of a similar disposition would all go to sleep, after all we are not talking mid summer

    The doctors stated that the victims were killed where they were found. We still have photographs of those crime scenes, and if anyone believes that the women were sleeping rough at these precise locations needs a reality check, and in particular Hallie Rubenhold

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk
    Thanks, Trevor. I am not suggesting the women were sleeping in those places. (I once suggested something a little similar, it was fully discussed on the Forum and I saw where I was wrong in that theory.)

    Another plausible angle would be, for instance Polly and Annie, weary and penniless around 3:00 AM, sitting on steps or leaning against a wall somewhere when a man comes along and makes an offer. There are lots of possibilities.

    Leave a comment:

  • Trevor Marriott
    Author & Researcher

  • Trevor Marriott
    replied
    Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
    Even if some of the women intended to earn the few pennies by prostitution, what if they were unable to do so? Say, no one was interested, likely clients went home, pubs were long closed.

    IMO, there had to be a turning point when the women knew the doss houses were closed, the likely customers were not around, etc. What was Plan B?

    Sleeping rough was one possibility. I have suggested they may have known a man from who they could get a few pennies when they were in dire straits. What about a man, a night watchman or similar, who could be induced to let the women sleep inside a building, perhaps in return for favours? They were not all found in the same exact area but a number of accounts of the actions of unfortunates or prostitutes in the day, included the man asking the woman to ´take a walk´ with him. That seemed to be a normal part of the transaction for obvious reasons. Were they asked to take a walk on the way to a place to sleep?

    If the women were unable by 3:00 AM or so, to earn money the usual way, did they have a destination in mind--physical location or finding a certain man-- to solve their immediate problem of homelessness?

    Anna
    Plan B would no doubt be to find somewhere to sleep, but In my opinion would not amount to just lying down on a footpath in a street. I am sure these women knew locations where others of a similar disposition would all go to sleep, after all we are not talking mid summer

    The doctors stated that the victims were killed where they were found. We still have photographs of those crime scenes, and if anyone believes that the women were sleeping rough at these precise locations needs a reality check, and in particular Hallie Rubenhold

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

    Leave a comment:

  • Anna Morris
    Registered User

  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Even if some of the women intended to earn the few pennies by prostitution, what if they were unable to do so? Say, no one was interested, likely clients went home, pubs were long closed.

    IMO, there had to be a turning point when the women knew the doss houses were closed, the likely customers were not around, etc. What was Plan B?

    Sleeping rough was one possibility. I have suggested they may have known a man from who they could get a few pennies when they were in dire straits. What about a man, a night watchman or similar, who could be induced to let the women sleep inside a building, perhaps in return for favours? They were not all found in the same exact area but a number of accounts of the actions of unfortunates or prostitutes in the day, included the man asking the woman to ´take a walk´ with him. That seemed to be a normal part of the transaction for obvious reasons. Were they asked to take a walk on the way to a place to sleep?

    If the women were unable by 3:00 AM or so, to earn money the usual way, did they have a destination in mind--physical location or finding a certain man-- to solve their immediate problem of homelessness?

    Leave a comment:

  • Robert Linford
    Researcher Extraordinaire

  • Robert Linford
    replied
    The words "where...trade" should have been in brackets.

    Leave a comment:

  • Howard Brown
    Registrar

  • Howard Brown
    replied
    Thank you for creating this thread, Anna.

    Leave a comment:

  • Sam Flynn
    Owl Catcher

  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
    What’s the source for that? It doesn’t read like a contemporary press report.
    It isn't. Trevor's source is a summary page about the events in Annie's life and her death, evidently drawn from a number of other sources.

    https://www.casebook.org/victims/chapman.html

    Leave a comment:

  • Debra Arif
    Registered User

  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
    I very much doubt the ‘find trade’ wording comes from a press report. I would imagine it’s the interpretation of whoever wrote the Casebook article.
    This is something I have mentioned to a couple of people-
    The Casebook is the first point of call for anyone wanting to read anything about the case online but it has not been updated in a very long time and some of the information given about the victims is not obviously taken from any contemporary source. I used this as an example from The Casebook Wiki (not the Casebook victims page) from the page about Polly Nichols and teh incident where Emily Holland and Polly Nichols talk-

    Polly tells Emily that she had had her doss money three times that day and had drunk it away. She says she will return to Flower and Dean Street where she could share a bed with a man after one more attempt to find trade.

    Perhaps we really do need to suck up some of the criticism aimed at us and our interpretations if we have let things like this slip through the net unchallenged?

    Leave a comment:

  • Robert Linford
    Researcher Extraordinaire

  • Robert Linford
    replied
    Yes String, she could have said that the women were probably prostitutes and the fact that they were was all the fault of the patriarchy blah, blah, blah, but she may have run into trouble. Someone would be bound to pop up and say "And what's wrong with being a sex worker? What's wrong with someone freely choosing to be such a person?" If she then replied that being a prostitute was dangerous, she'd have been accused of victim-blaming. I kid you not.

    Leave a comment:

  • String
    Registered User

  • String
    replied
    If she had have taken the line that these ladies were in such a state that they found that prostitution was their only way of making money to live on she could have taken the feminist line and stayed on the side of the truth. I’m sure none of them chose this life, but due to alcoholism and economic necessity they found they had little choice. Unfortunately that’s all been said before and we have a book to sell.

    Leave a comment:

  • Robert Linford
    Researcher Extraordinaire

  • Robert Linford
    replied
    Lars, AP always used to say that the women approached him, not vice versa.

    Leave a comment:

  • Mr. Poster
    Ph.D. Ripperologist

  • Mr. Poster
    replied
    Some soliciting but all either looking for money by means such as begging or soliciting.

    Which leaves open the possibility that there was no killer stalking the streets looking for victims, but a killer on the streets who took the opportunity that the interaction initiated by the women offered him. Which is not the same as going out looking for victims.

    If that initiating interaction had not occurred, he might have continued on his way and home to bed.

    P

    Leave a comment:

  • Gary Barnett
    Rambler

  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
    From the same source


    Chapman
    1:35 AM: Annie returns to the lodging house again. She is eating a baked potato. John Evans, the night watchman, has been sent to collect her bed money. "I haven't sufficient money for my bed," she tells him, "but don't let it. I shall not be long before I'm in." "You can find money for your beer and you can't find money for your bed." She steps out of the office and says. "Never mind, I'll soon be back." Goes out never seen alive again
    Both show a propensity towards prostitution



    Both articles show a propensity towards prostitution


    www.trevormarriott.co.uk
    I very much doubt the ‘find trade’ wording comes from a press report. I would imagine it’s the interpretation of whoever wrote the Casebook article.

    Leave a comment:

  • Trevor Marriott
    Author & Researcher

  • Trevor Marriott
    replied
    Originally posted by jachim3926 View Post
    '[B][/B]Ifin the below article is correct it clearly points to prostitution'.
    Oddly, you have summed up the quest for the truth in two letters Bravo!

    But Rubenhold and her followers dont want to listen or be prepared to accept the truth


    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

    Leave a comment:

  • Trevor Marriott
    Author & Researcher

  • Trevor Marriott
    replied
    Originally posted by jachim3926 View Post
    '[B][/B]Ifin the below article is correct it clearly points to prostitution'.
    Oddly, you have summed up the quest for the truth in two letters Bravo!

    From the same source


    Chapman
    1:35 AM: Annie returns to the lodging house again. She is eating a baked potato. John Evans, the night watchman, has been sent to collect her bed money. "I haven't sufficient money for my bed," she tells him, "but don't let it. I shall not be long before I'm in." "You can find money for your beer and you can't find money for your bed." She steps out of the office and says. "Never mind, I'll soon be back." Goes out never seen alive again
    Both show a propensity towards prostitution



    Both articles show a propensity towards prostitution


    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

    Leave a comment:

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