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Bruce Robinson's Positions On........

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  • Bruce Robinson's Positions On........

    Thread set up to list the author's position on a wide range of Case related issues.

    To begin with, Robinson, in contrast to what some may believe, states that the police presence was not augmented as claimed by Scotland Yard...and in fact remained virtually the same from the Chapman murder to November 4th....an eight week period.

    "Police Orders"
    Published At Scotland Yard

    Date # of Constables

    Sept 1 468

    Sept 8 469

    Sept 15 470

    Sept 22 469

    Sept 29 469

    Oct. 6 469

    Oct. 13 471

    Oct. 20 471

    Oct. 28 471

    Nov. 4 512

    ************************************************** ****
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  • #2
    In opposition to what many believe, Robinson states that there were grapes and a grapestalk at Berner Street.......and lists 5 people who stated they did.

    PC Henry Lamb
    Fanny Mortimer
    Louis Diemschutz
    Isaac Kozebrodski
    Walter Dew
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    • #3
      Mr. Robinson's position on the condition of Catherine Eddowes ear is that it was cut off.
      In his book, he includes this sketch to support his view as well as the comment by Dr. Brown that Catherine's auricle had been obliquely cut.

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      • #4
        Just to be clear, I find some of his ideas really intriguing.
        The purpose of the thread isn't to belittle him or ridicule him...not at all.
        In fact, if you care to bring up points in favor of any of his ideas, please do so, as I have already ( That the Goulston Street wall writing ought not to have been called graffiti in the first place).
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        • #5
          I take it that Mr. Robinson hasn't seen Foster's sketches? Someone who actually did see the body?

          If the killer had wanted to cut off one or both ears to send to the police, he could have easily done it cleanly, not partially...considering he was able to remove a kidney and uterus and clip the eylids.

          It never ceases to amaze me how even the little real evidence available gets misinterpreted simply because someone has a theory to peddle.
          Best Wishes,
          Cris Malone
          ______________________________________________
          "Objectivity comes from how the evidence is treated, not the nature of the evidence itself. Historians can be just as objective as any scientist."

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
            In opposition to what many believe, Robinson states that there were grapes and a grapestalk at Berner Street.......and lists 5 people who stated they did.

            PC Henry Lamb
            Fanny Mortimer
            Louis Diemschutz
            Isaac Kozebrodski
            Walter Dew
            The grapes stalk tale is an example of a rumor mill spawned in the confusion of the moment. When placed under oath, Diemshitz said he saw no grapes. Lamb testified the same.

            What is Robinson's source for Lamb?
            Best Wishes,
            Cris Malone
            ______________________________________________
            "Objectivity comes from how the evidence is treated, not the nature of the evidence itself. Historians can be just as objective as any scientist."

            Comment


            • #7
              Thanks Cris..
              Robinson has seen Foster's sketch.


              Let's try the grapes....
              Robinson opines that researchers dismiss the grape story because there were no witnesses who claimed to have seen them or that no evidence of either was brought up in court.

              Robinson states that among the 7 ( not 5 as I previously posted) who are reported to have seen grapes or stalks...none were called to the witness box to tell Baxter what they saw in her hand ( besides the cachous in the other hand).
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              • #8
                Cuz:

                Lamb's recollections were recorded by the Daily Telegraph. Mortimer and Kozebrodski in the DT as well.

                Diemschutz's thoughts were recorded by the Evening News.

                Among the newspapers who reported the grape story independent of one another were...the Times, The Evening News, The Daily News, Globe, Evening Standard, Morning Advertiser, and Daily Telegraph.

                Cris.....Where did you find or hear that Diemschutz changed his story at the Inquest ? In the Times account of the Inquest, he doesn't mention anything relative to the grapes such as he remarked to the press.
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                • #9
                  Cris:

                  Ditto with PC Lamb.
                  Where did you see it stated Lamb denied seeing the grapes or even mentioning the grapes ?
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Howie

                    Cris.....Where did you find or hear that Diemschutz changed his story at the Inquest ? In the Times account of the Inquest, he doesn't mention anything relative to the grapes such as he remarked to the press.
                    From Diemshitz's testimony, the Morning Advertizer Oct 2--

                    "She was lying on her side, with her face towards the wall of the club. I could not say whether the body was on its side, but her face was. As soon as the police came I ceased to take any interest in the matter. I did not notice in what position her hands were. I only noticed when the doctor came up he undid the first buttons of her dress next the neck, and put his hand in. He then told the constable that she was quite warm yet. He told the constable to put his hand in and feel the body, and he did so..."

                    If he did not notice the position of her hands, it would be difficult to notice grapes I would think. Everyone knew the stories in the press at that point. Now, under oath, Diemshitz says as soon as the police came he ceased to take notice. This is a change from the press reports.
                    Best Wishes,
                    Cris Malone
                    ______________________________________________
                    "Objectivity comes from how the evidence is treated, not the nature of the evidence itself. Historians can be just as objective as any scientist."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
                      Cris:

                      Ditto with PC Lamb.
                      Where did you see it stated Lamb denied seeing the grapes or even mentioning the grapes ?
                      From PC Lamb's testimony as transcribed by the Daily Telegraph Oct, 3---

                      Coroner] Up to this time had you touched the body? - I had put my hand on the face.
                      [Coroner] Was it warm? - Slightly. I felt the wrist, but could not discern any movement of the pulse. I then blew my whistle for assistance.
                      [Coroner] Did you observe how the deceased was lying? - She was lying on her left side, with her left hand on the ground.
                      [Coroner] Was there anything in that hand? - I did not notice anything. The right arm was across the breast. Her face was not more than five or six inches away from the club wall.


                      He did not notice anything.
                      There was a reason why Baxter asked that question.
                      Best Wishes,
                      Cris Malone
                      ______________________________________________
                      "Objectivity comes from how the evidence is treated, not the nature of the evidence itself. Historians can be just as objective as any scientist."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thanks for taking the time, Cris....

                        This is what is suspicious to Robinson.....that both men, independent of each other and to different newspapers ( In Lamb's case, Lamb saw the grapes and told the DT...and then tells the DT her hand was empty two days later) originally tell the press one thing and then another.
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                        • #13
                          Well, he wasn't telling the DT the second time, but the coroner, under oath at the inquest. The DT just reported it.
                          Best Wishes,
                          Cris Malone
                          ______________________________________________
                          "Objectivity comes from how the evidence is treated, not the nature of the evidence itself. Historians can be just as objective as any scientist."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Exactly, Cris....it was in coroner's court...not on Berner Street. Thanks !

                            Anyone else with a comment to make ?
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                            • #15
                              Page 103

                              'She (Polly Nichols) had her throat cut across, her entrails hauled out and a worthless ring purloined from her finger.'

                              Her entrails certainly weren't hauled out.
                              I believe the ring marks on her fingers were deemed to be old and the rings long gone.

                              Robinson also repeatedly states that the victims metal buttons were removed - but Polly Nichols had metal buttons on her Ulster which are mentioned among her possessions.

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