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Q & A - Pat Bennet

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  • I do not believe Mary Kelly was killed after witnesses like Mrs. Maxwell claimed they had seen her.

    In do however agree with one of our great researchers--sorry I don't remember exactly who--that suggests Mary was out on the streets long after Mr. A. was seen in her company by George Hutchinson. It makes sense that she was killed around 4:00-4:30 AM.

    I think the later 'sightings' of MJK may tell us some things about the neighborhood and lives of women in that area. How many of these women had maroon crossover shawls? Were these perhaps made in prison? (We found that Bridget Kelly had been issued 'red' yarn for crochet work while she was in prison.) Did women use each others' names? Was 'Mary (Jane) Kelly' a frequently used fake name? Did Mrs. Maxwell believe she had previously met THE Mary Jane Kelly, but had met another woman using that name? How many 'unfortunates' on Dorset Street used the name Mary Jane Kelly? Or Kelly? Or Mary Jane?

    I used to think Mrs. Maxwell must have been drunk or deluded but Debra found her records and she seems to have been a respectable, hard working lady.

    There are lots of questions. Answers to some or all might lead us to a final identification of MJK. Maybe her name was NOT MJK. Maybe the Marie Jeanette part came from her time in France. (I have argued against this in the past but at this time I am not sure what to think.) Maybe that name came from the Morgansterns because a name similar to that is reasonably common in Holland, not to mention that Holland is right next to largely French speaking Belgium and the Morgansterns had connections to Belgium.

    However it is, JtR did not leave enough of Mary's face that witnesses could be challenged. It was anybody's guess. Thus we have some researchers claiming MJK escaped and another woman was killed in her stead. I do not agree with that but there are some well written efforts that explain this scenario.
    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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    • How many members here think another woman was killed, and not the woman known as Mary Kelly?

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      • Originally posted by Patricia Bennet View Post
        How many members here think another woman was killed, and not the woman known as Mary Kelly?
        Well I think it was either another woman who was killed or Mary Kelly was killed after 09:30 am! IMHO! xx

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        • Is everyone here aware that it was the lodging house deputy, Mary Russell, that provided the testimony of what happened to Emma Smith, and not Emma herself? And do any of you suspect that Emma Smith was attacked in the lodging house, and not on the street as Russell claimed?

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          • Is everyone here aware that it was the lodging house deputy, Mary Russell, that provided the testimony of what happened to Emma Smith, and not Emma herself?
            -Pats-

            Thanks for mentioning this, Pat. I've seen it stated on occasion that Emma, herself, told the attending physicians her tale of terror that night.
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            • Originally posted by Patricia Bennet View Post
              Is everyone here aware that it was the lodging house deputy, Mary Russell, that provided the testimony of what happened to Emma Smith, and not Emma herself? And do any of you suspect that Emma Smith was attacked in the lodging house, and not on the street as Russell claimed?

              I certainly was not, and, having checked, I would disagree. Although the lodging house deputy does provide testimony about what Emma Smith said happened, so does the surgeon who attended to her:


              Mr. George Haslip, house surgeon, deposed that the deceased was admitted suffering from severe injuries, which he thought had been caused by some blunt instrument. She had been drinking, but was not intoxicated. She had a ruptured pirinium of very recent date, and also some bruises on her head. Her right ear was torn and bleeding. She told witness that at 1.30 that morning she was going by Whitechapel Church when she saw some men coming, and she crossed the road to get out of their way, but they followed her. They assaulted her and robbed her of all the money she had. She could not describe the men, except that one looked a youth of 19.

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              • My mistake and thank you for pointing out Haslip, Kattrup !
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                • Originally posted by Kattrup View Post
                  I certainly was not, and, having checked, I would disagree. Although the lodging house deputy does provide testimony about what Emma Smith said happened, so does the surgeon who attended to her:

                  Kattrup and How, it's just so interesting that all of the police constables that Emma Smith would have walked by, to get back to her lodging house, stated that they never saw her! Isn't it possible that Emma Smith never walked by these police constables, and may have been attacked in the lodging house? If Emma Smith believed she might survive her wounds, isn't it possible she went along with what she had been told to say, by the lodging house deputy?

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                  • Originally posted by Patricia Bennet View Post
                    Kattrup and How, it's just so interesting that all of the police constables that Emma Smith would have walked by, to get back to her lodging house, stated that they never saw her! Isn't it possible that Emma Smith never walked by these police constables, and may have been attacked in the lodging house? If Emma Smith believed she might survive her wounds, isn't it possible she went along with what she had been told to say, by the lodging house deputy?
                    Hi Pat,

                    Osborn Street is only a few minutes walk away from George Street. It’s quite conceivable that she passed no PC as she made her way back to her lodgings.

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                    • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                      Hi Pat,

                      Osborn Street is only a few minutes walk away from George Street. It?s quite conceivable that she passed no PC as she made her way back to her lodgings.
                      Hi Gary, I just find it so hard to believe that no one saw this poor woman walking with these horrific injuries, bleeding and crying, and no one saw her! xx

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                      • Does anyone here know how Emma Smith was taken to the hospital? Did Mary Russel take her by carriage or did she make Emma walk? Thank you! xx

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                        • Taken from Casebook's page about Emma:

                          "The lodging house deputy, Mary Russell and lodger Annie Lee, amazed that she could even have made it this far, rushed her to the London Hospital on Whitechapel Road, apparently against Emma's will."

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                          • Originally posted by Patricia Bennet View Post
                            Does anyone here know how Emma Smith was taken to the hospital? Did Mary Russel take her by carriage or did she make Emma walk? Thank you! xx
                            I don?t think it?s known exactly; the papers state she was taken there, but how is not specified.
                            One paper uses the verb ?conveyed? which implies a carriage.

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                            • Originally posted by Kattrup View Post
                              I don?t think it?s known exactly; the papers state she was taken there, but how is not specified.
                              One paper uses the verb ?conveyed? which implies a carriage.
                              Thank you Kattrup and Matt! A horrific and slow death the woman had to endure!

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                              • Horrible death indeed, Pats.

                                Personally, I think her experience was worse than those that came after her.

                                They weren't tortured and died rather quickly as opposed to her hours of agony.
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