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Q & A - Pat Bennet

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  • Maybe one -- of many no doubt -- starting places in identifying Joe B.'s wife would be to keep our eyes open for Lizzies or Louisas in MJK's circle. There is the suggestion that Joe's wife was a witness, whatever that means. It seems Lizzie Allbrook should have been a witness if she was one of the last people with MJK.
    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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    • Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
      There is the suggestion that Joe's wife was a witness, whatever that means. It seems Lizzie Allbrook should have been a witness if she was one of the last people with MJK.
      Lizzie Albrook's story contradicts that of Maria Harvey as they are "both" claiming to be with Mary the night before until Joe arrived.

      There's a good case to be made that Lizzie Albrook was an journalistic invention that was picked up by Walter Dew, using Maria Harvey's story as a basis, to use as a moral lesson.

      Lizzie Albrook - Witness And Friend Of Mary Kelly. (jack-the-ripper.org)

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      • Originally posted by San Fran View Post
        Lizzie Albrook's story contradicts that of Maria Harvey as they are "both" claiming to be with Mary the night before until Joe arrived.

        There's a good case to be made that Lizzie Albrook was an journalistic invention that was picked up by Walter Dew, using Maria Harvey's story as a basis, to use as a moral lesson.

        Lizzie Albrook - Witness And Friend Of Mary Kelly. (jack-the-ripper.org)
        I already put forth that suggestion, that Lizzie was a press invention to temper sympathy for Mary's ghastly death with morality. Young Lizzie was warned by Mary not to ever take up the "bad life", etc. She was not an official witness and her name and story seem to originate in a Welsh "Daily Mail" article. Another researcher somewhere here had a great explanation of how both Lizzie and Mrs. Harvey could have been present when Joe arrived. I wish I could point to that explanation as it made a lot of sense in clearing up both women's presence and the likely existence of Lizzie.

        The link given could be the equivalent of a post here on the Forum. That is what we know at this time and we have an historical dead end but that does not mean we have to accept any conclusion. I give little credence to Walter Dew. I am sure he remembered catching Crippen but his 'memories' of MJK always sound created IMO.

        Alternately we can keep in mind the necessity in literature of the time, that a woman who had fallen had to be repentant and suffer. This theme explains the trajectory of "La Dame aux Camelias" by Dumas fils. Young courtesan Marie du Plessis could be understood because she suffered, repented and died. Verdi was said to have great sympathy for the plight of fallen women, especially since he was cohabiting with a woman who was shunned for her indiscretions. He recreated Marie as Violetta in "La Traviata".

        In good literary tradition, Mary Jane Kelly needed to suffer and repent before her death could take on the noble aspects of her being a victim. I can imagine moralists of the time cringing over the heartfelt sympathy for a prostitute who was so horribly destroyed in a squalid room in a dangerous slum.

        That said, I think there was a Lizzie Allbrook though she may have been a Louisa Albrecht/Allbright....etc. There are a number of ways to spell a surname that might sound like Allbrook. There are a number of Louisa Albrechts in the BMD but extended family had German names. There are also a few Louisa (sounds like Allbrook) candidates born in the East End at right time.

        In the U.S. we think of Lizzie as short for Elizabeth and never for Louisa. It looks like in 1800's UK, Lizzie was a common nickname for Louisa? Was it as common for Elizabeth? Considering there was the great queen, Elizabeth I, might that name be treated with more deference?
        The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post

          I already put forth that suggestion, that Lizzie was a press invention to temper sympathy for Mary's ghastly death with morality. Young Lizzie was warned by Mary not to ever take up the "bad life", etc. She was not an official witness and her name and story seem to originate in a Welsh "Daily Mail" article. Another researcher somewhere here had a great explanation of how both Lizzie and Mrs. Harvey could have been present when Joe arrived. I wish I could point to that explanation as it made a lot of sense in clearing up both women's presence and the likely existence of Lizzie.
          hi Anna, I think you’re thinking of my post, which basically argues that since there’s no contradiction between the two women’s accounts, there’s no reason to think one is false or anything like that. They actually mesh perfectly.

          https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/crit...144#post513144

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          • Originally posted by Kattrup View Post

            hi Anna, I think you’re thinking of my post, which basically argues that since there’s no contradiction between the two women’s accounts, there’s no reason to think one is false or anything like that. They actually mesh perfectly.

            https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/crit...144#post513144
            Thank you, Kattrup. I thought it was your post but I was afraid to try to remember names and sources. I agree with what you wrote and it made a deep impression in my thinking.
            The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

            Comment


            • Originally posted by San Fran View Post
              I'm sorry, Patricia. I thought Lizzie Albrook was eliminated. Instead, it was a candidate for LIzzie Albrook that was eliminated as being Joe Barnett's wife, Louisa.

              So Lizzie Albrook is still in contention to be JB's wife unless, of course, this is correct and she is this particular Louisa Allbrook that was brought up.The details are in the link.

              Lizzie Allbrook - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)
              Thank you for the link San Fran!

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              • I would like to wish all the fathers here a very Happy Fathers' Day! xx

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                • Just curious, what does every one think about Albert Bachert?

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                  • Originally posted by Patricia Bennet View Post
                    Just curious, what does every one think about Albert Bachert?
                    Hi Patricia.

                    Think of him In what regard?

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                    • Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post

                      Hi Patricia.

                      Think of him In what regard?
                      Hi Jerry. The article that had appeared in The Times on the 1st of October 1888, which reported an account given by Bachert concerning a suspicious character whom he had met on the 30th of September, the night that Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes had been murdered.

                      The article quoted Bachert as having stated:-

                      “I was in the Three Nuns Hotel, Aldgate, on Saturday night, when a man got into a conversation with me. He asked me questions which now appear to me to have some bearing upon the recent murders. He wanted to know whether I knew what sort of loose women used the public bar at that house, when they usually left the street outside, and where they were in the habit of going. He asked further questions, and from his manner seemed to be up to no good purpose. He appeared to be a shabby genteel sort of man, and was dressed in black clothes. He wore a black felt hat and carried a black bag. We came out together at closing time (12 o’clock), and I left him outside Aldgate Railway Station.”

                      Do you believe him, or think he was just seeking publicity?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Patricia Bennet View Post

                        Hi Jerry. The article that had appeared in The Times on the 1st of October 1888, which reported an account given by Bachert concerning a suspicious character whom he had met on the 30th of September, the night that Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes had been murdered.

                        The article quoted Bachert as having stated:-

                        “I was in the Three Tuns Hotel, Aldgate, on Saturday night, when a man got into a conversation with me. He asked me questions which now appear to me to have some bearing upon the recent murders. He wanted to know whether I knew what sort of loose women used the public bar at that house, when they usually left the street outside, and where they were in the habit of going. He asked further questions, and from his manner seemed to be up to no good purpose. He appeared to be a shabby genteel sort of man, and was dressed in black clothes. He wore a black felt hat and carried a black bag. We came out together at closing time (12 o’clock), and I left him outside Aldgate Railway Station.”

                        Do you believe him, or think he was just seeking publicity?
                        Thanks Patricia.

                        In my mind, Bachert would not have quit there. He would have followed this guy all night, imo, if he thought he was up to no good.

                        Bachert injected himself into a lot of situations even prior to 1888. I think (on good evidence) he wrote a few of the letters attributed to Jack the Ripper. I wish we had more information on him after 1901, but he seems to have vanished into thin air, which is odd for what we know about him.

                        I would also like to know more about his Bristol connections. He was in Bristol when he was arrested last (1893 Bread Fraud) and brought back to London to face charges. I believe some of his Bristol connection may be related to the Skeleton Army but I'm not 100% on that. Did he return to Bristol in later life? That's what I've been looking at.

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                        • That report should read "The Three Nuns Hotel", which was next to the Aldgate underground R/W (present tube station). The Workingmen's Vigilance Group started meeting there shortly after the double event. It is not known if Bachert was a member at that time, but I suspect he probably was.

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                          • Jerry that is very interesting that he vanished after 1901. I had read that his father vanished years before, and he reported him missing. Very odd!

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                            • That conversation does not necessarily mean anything, even if it took place as reported. The man in the bar could have been a news reporter, an early Ripperologist, a free lance detective, a man who wondered what it would be like to be JtR. We have knowledge of a number of men who used JtR's escapades as an excuse to act out crimes of there own. JtR had caught the public's imagination so I do not put much importance in this conversation.

                              I doubt JtR engaged in such conversations. IMO, he intimately knew the area and its women and their patterns. Though his crimes were high risk and he probably enjoyed the thrills, I do not believe he wanted to be caught, thus he would not risk such a conversation.
                              The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                              Comment


                              • Jerry, Scott, and Anna I agree that it seems if he truly met this strange suspect at the Three Nuns Hotel, where the vigilance group met, he would have have notified some of the other members, and followed this man. He definitely didn’t want to follow this man alone. Imagine if some of the members followed this man, on September 30, and he was the Ripper! Too bad!

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