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Q & A - Pat Bennet

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  • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

    Where where your two JM’s born?
    Have a look at the censuses for 1881, 1891 and 1901. Who was the head of the household at 27, Dorset Street and where was he born? A French-born (circa 1847) John McCarthy - how many of those were there in Dorset Street, the East End, London, the British Isles, the world…?

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    • Apologies to Pat for derailing the thread. If Scott or anyone else genuinely believes that the ‘Worst Street’ JM and MJK’s landlord were different people, perhaps it might be worthwhile to create a new thread on the question. I have little doubt that they were one and the same, but there are a couple of curious discrepancies in the evidence.


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      • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
        Apologies to Pat for derailing the thread. If Scott or anyone else genuinely believes that the ‘Worst Street’ JM and MJK’s landlord were different people, perhaps it might be worthwhile to create a new thread on the question. I have little doubt that they were one and the same, but there are a couple of curious discrepancies in the evidence.
        Personally I've no doubt either.

        The Jack McCarthy railing against the unfair description of Dorset Street is described as "a gentleman who holds a considerable amount of property in the neighbourhood" and he mentions that "I stood at my shop door last Saturday afternoon", so the orator Scott Nelson likens to an elder statesman kept a shop in Dorset Street - all in all he sounds very much like a slum landlord, but perhaps not a lowly one!

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        • Originally posted by Kattrup View Post
          Personally I've no doubt either.

          The Jack McCarthy railing against the unfair description of Dorset Street is described as "a gentleman who holds a considerable amount of property in the neighbourhood" and he mentions that "I stood at my shop door last Saturday afternoon", so the orator Scott Nelson likens to an elder statesman kept a shop in Dorset Street - all in all he sounds very much like a slum landlord, but perhaps not a lowly one!
          In Spitalfields terms he was an elder statesman. He’d held court at 27, Dorset Street for decades, was deeply involved in the local economy and the boxing world. Plus his son was in the entertainment industry and married one of London’s premier Music Hall stars.

          I have wondered whether his speech was verbatim or had been brushed up a bit by whoever produced the pamphlet.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

            Have a look at the censuses for 1881, 1891 and 1901. Who was the head of the household at 27, Dorset Street and where was he born? A French-born (circa 1847) John McCarthy - how many of those were there in Dorset Street, the East End, London, the British Isles, the world…?
            I haven't looked at any of this in ages, but what I assume puzzles many people who look into it casually is that there are two John McCarthys listed at No. 27 Dorset Street in 1891, both the same age (42) and both married to women aged 38. One born Spitalfields, the other Dieppe, one a shopkeeper, the other a grocer. It is, of course, the second man that is identified as the boxing enthusiast, etc., but I don't immediately recall your explanation for the first bloke?

            I know Chris Scott racked his brain about it here, but I don't think he ever formulated an explanation beyond finding it confusing. Do you think it is a double entry for the same man?

            John McCarthy in the 1891 census - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums


            91 Census.JPG

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            • Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post

              I haven't looked at any of this in ages, but what I assume puzzles many people who look into it casually is that there are two John McCarthys listed at No. 27 Dorset Street in 1891, both the same age (42) and both married to women aged 38. One born Spitalfields, the other Dieppe, one a shopkeeper, the other a grocer. It is, of course, the second man that is identified as the boxing enthusiast, etc., but I don't immediately recall your explanation for the first bloke?

              I know Chris Scott racked his brain about it here, but I don't think he ever formulated an explanation beyond finding it confusing. Do you think it is a double entry for the same man?

              John McCarthy in the 1891 census - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums


              91 Census.JPG
              Yes, that’s one of the issues I referred to above. But the French birth of the other JM nails him I think. How many East End John McCarthies would have been born in France - and Dieppe in particular?

              It could be a double entry, but the son George is a bit of a mystery.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                I have wondered whether his speech was verbatim or had been brushed up a bit by whoever produced the pamphlet.
                I somehow managed to delete my post, and don't have the desire to recreate it, but the pamphlet is definitely not verbatim. Or doesn't appear to be.

                This must not be well-known, but Boxing World and Mirror of Life published a different version of the speech on 24 July 1901, and identifies the 'Worst Street' speaker as the boxing promoter.

                This version of the speech has considerably different wording and also contains elements not to be found in the pamphlet version..

                To give one example, here is the passage about Oliver Twist from the pamphlet:


                "Boy thieves are trained as regularly and systematically around Dorset Street to-day as they were in the days of Oliver Twist.

                THE CANCER OF THE "DOSS HOUSE"

                There must seem, I am well aware, an air of unreality about this to follow who read it in comfortable surburban homes or bright country houses. It seems impossible that in our new century these things should continue."


                Here is the same section, published by Boxing World:


                McCarthy.JPG



                If anything, McCarthy's original speech may have been more colorful, rabble-rousing, and demonstrative than the version in the pamphlet--that is, if the Boxing World journalist is at all accurate.


                Comment


                • Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post

                  I somehow managed to delete my post, and don't have the desire to recreate it, but the pamphlet is definitely not verbatim. Or doesn't appear to be.

                  This must not be well-known, but Boxing World and Mirror of Life published a different version of the speech on 24 July 1901, and identifies the 'Worst Street' speaker as the boxing promoter.

                  This version of the speech has considerably different wording and also contains elements not to be found in the pamphlet version..

                  To give one example, here is the passage about Oliver Twist from the pamphlet:


                  "Boy thieves are trained as regularly and systematically around Dorset Street to-day as they were in the days of Oliver Twist.

                  THE CANCER OF THE "DOSS HOUSE"

                  There must seem, I am well aware, an air of unreality about this to follow who read it in comfortable surburban homes or bright country houses. It seems impossible that in our new century these things should continue."


                  Here is the same section, published by Boxing World:


                  McCarthy.JPG



                  If anything, McCarthy's original speech may have been more colorful, rabble-rousing, and demonstrative than the version in the pamphlet--that is, if the Boxing World journalist is at all accurate.

                  Thanks for reminding me of the Boxing World version of the speech, RJ. It is slightly different, as you say. I’ve always thought the speech as reported seemed a bit too literary for the man I believe JM to have been. At one time I wondered if it had been ‘Steve’ McCarthy who had given it, but it would seem not.

                  Looking it up led me to the very interesting ‘Three McCarthys’ article and photo, which appeared in Boxing World in 1902. That added more confusion, though, with its statement that McCarthy senr had been born in the East End.

                  Comment


                  • Well, this should be moved to a McCarthy thread, but, in regards to George in the 1891 Census for 27 Dorset, there was a George McCarthy, about the right age, born Stepney in later census returns (actual name James George McCarthy) who was a fish monger and this was also his father's profession--I think his father's name was James JOHN McCarthy.

                    I was hoping that maybe they ran a fish shop in Dorset Street in 1891 and this would explain a reference to such a fish shop by the other John McCarthy, but it doesn't appear to work. The mother's name is wrong and some fellow who researched the family claims they were living elsewhere in 1891 and had begun using the name 'Carter' instead of McCarthy.

                    It wasn't necessarily easy being Irish in London in the 1880s, when Clan-na-Gael was bombing the train stations, so that might be one explanation for the temporary name change.

                    George is a hard one to trace. George Robert McCarthy, b. Stepney, 4Q 1873, had a father named Jeremiah. I don't know who they are.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post
                      Well, this should be moved to a McCarthy thread, but, in regards to George in the 1891 Census for 27 Dorset, there was a George McCarthy, about the right age, born Stepney in later census returns (actual name James George McCarthy) who was a fish monger and this was also his father's profession--I think his father's name was James JOHN McCarthy.

                      I was hoping that maybe they ran a fish shop in Dorset Street in 1891 and this would explain a reference to such a fish shop by the other John McCarthy, but it doesn't appear to work. The mother's name is wrong and some fellow who researched the family claims they were living elsewhere in 1891 and had begun using the name 'Carter' instead of McCarthy.

                      It wasn't necessarily easy being Irish in London in the 1880s, when Clan-na-Gael was bombing the train stations, so that might be one explanation for the temporary name change.

                      George is a hard one to trace. George Robert McCarthy, b. Stepney, 4Q 1873, had a father named Jeremiah. I don't know who they are.
                      It’s funny that JM referenced three businesses in Dorset Street run by McCarthys and said they owned by different families. One of them was run by his sister-in-law, Annie (ne้ Crossingham), Daniel’s widow. There is a phrase ‘awkward Annie’ used to describe a girl/woman who doesn’t fit in - I have a feeling that Annie McC/Crossingham may have been one such.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post

                        Actually the article is available online here - whether with or without permission, I don't know:
                        https://ripperwriters.aforumfree.com...berline-h1.htm
                        This is very interesting, Scott.

                        Where did you obtain the information that the event took place in the cramped bar?

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                        • This is a great and interesting thread here. John McCarthy and Frederick Abberline have always been the most interesting people, to me, in this entire Ripper case. I have always wondered if John McCarthy (Mary's Landlord) was the same John McCarthy that attended Abberline's retirement. Gary Barnett makes a great point, that even though John McCarthy was a common name, how many John McCarthys were born in France. xx

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                          • Anna, Gary, Scott, R.J., and Kattrup, do any of you know of any documented case, other than Emma Smith, where a woman was murdered by a gang? I can't find anything. Women being murdered back then was rare, and when it happened it was usually committed by a husband or boyfriend. I can't find anything where a woman was murdered by a gang. xxx

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Patricia Bennet View Post
                              Anna, Gary, Scott, R.J., and Kattrup, do any of you know of any documented case, other than Emma Smith, where a woman was murdered by a gang? I can't find anything. Women being murdered back then was rare, and when it happened it was usually committed by a husband or boyfriend. I can't find anything where a woman was murdered by a gang. xxx
                              Patricia-
                              Similar to Emma Smith, Emily Horsnail claimed to have been injured by some men she didn't know just before she died from agonising peritonitis, curled up in a corner in Satchel's lodging house at 19 George Street in 1887.
                              https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...age4#post57026

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