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Points To Ponder ----Stride's Response, According To Schwartz

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  • Points To Ponder ----Stride's Response, According To Schwartz

    Its understood, here at the outset, that Israel Schwartz indicated to Donald Swanson that during the assault on Elizabeth Stride she cried out ( Swanson says "screamed three times, but not loudly..." in his October 19th report to the Home Office ).

    At first, this might seem like last week's leftovers....but bear with me if you would. I am also aware that I might be rehashing something which is a matter of interpretation ( screamed= yelped...screamed=grunted loudly...screamed=cursed in anger,....and so on and so forth...), in this case, a Yiddish speaking man, whose description of what Stride uttered was unintentionally amplified by Swanson, when Schwartz may not have meant what we English-speakers would classify as a genuine scream...either loudly or not.

    I don't know how one can be described as screaming or uttering a scream...but not loudly. I suppose this is the best description of the reason I set this thread up.

    I'll stop here in order that others provide their feelings on the issue.

    Thank you.
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  • #2
    It does seem like an oxymoron, doesn't it?

    maybe she 'just squealed a bit.'
    Best Wishes,
    Cris Malone
    ______________________________________________
    "Objectivity comes from how the evidence is treated, not the nature of the evidence itself. Historians can be just as objective as any scientist."

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    • #3
      Cris:

      Correct me if I'm wrong in the following because I'm tired and its been a long day, buddy...and someone might have found something I am unaware of in another paper....

      Schwartz's reference to Stride screaming did not appear in print prior to the Saucy Jacky postcard, which is where the reference to the "number one squealed just a bit," comes from....correct ?

      I ask this because I rechecked the Star and reference to Stride making any noise is not to be found...other than him stating that he heard the sound of a quarrel.
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      • #4
        That's correct, How. Schwartz's official testimony wasn't fully known until access was allowed to the official files.
        Best Wishes,
        Cris Malone
        ______________________________________________
        "Objectivity comes from how the evidence is treated, not the nature of the evidence itself. Historians can be just as objective as any scientist."

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        • #5
          Cris:

          Thank you Cuz and I thought so.
          It certainly gives some credence (imho) to the theory that whoever sent the Saucy Jacky postcard was speaking from firsthand knowledge. I believe if someone had sent a missive regarding an element of a crime which wasn't made available until a while later, lets say in our age, here in 2011, we'd consider that missive as being legitimate.

          Back to the thread....

          Anyone else have thoughts on why no one heard the scuffle between Stride and her assailant...or at least never came forward ?
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          • #6
            Now if Jack knocked her down he might of knocked the wind out of her so she might of not been able to cry out. I always thought once Jack had made up his mind to kill someone he got right to work and worked quickly.

            Quite an interesting topic. A point to ponder indeed. If Stride was a victim, I believe that he saw her standing there and blitzed her not really giving her time to cry out. Unfortunately for Jack it was a busy street and JTR ended up getting spooked.

            Now I used to think that Jack was so vicious on Eddowes because he was interrupted with Stride so he was quite furious about how his night was going and took it out on poor Eddowes. That was what I used to believe and that theory could be remotely possible if you discount Kelly who had it even worse unless JTR was getting really PO'd about the cops interrupting his work so he took it out on the last two victims which is simplifying JTR, which could be a dangerous thing to do. Which ends up bringing me back to square one. Which is why left JTR alone for 20 some years. Got tried of running around in circles.

            Anyways, I can concede that perhaps Stride wasn't one of JTR's victims. I'm 50/50 on her to tell the truth.

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            • #7
              Although I do know from my own experience witnessing a fight/beat down in 2001 when I was working at Hardee's, that certain events like fights happen quickly and witnesses get confused.

              To elaborate, I was working the night-shift as a short order cook/ Biscuit maker. Now it was my duty to take food out to the customer as Drive Thur was the only register we had open so we would have the customer pull forward and I'd take out their order.

              Now the parking lot did not have a lot of lighting so when I saw a guy getting pulled out of the passenger seat of his car I couldn't see the assailant's face and since it happened so quick I really couldn't make out what was said by the attackers.I was on the drivers side too giving the driver their order. They started giving the guy they pulled out the beat down pretty quick. Frankly, I was running to get back into the store (Hardees). I did turn back to see what was happening but the figures at the car were in the shadows. I was about 3 feet away from the action at the door by that time.

              Anyways as I was telling my supervisor what was happening the car peeled out. I guess the driver helped the victim back in the car or the guy who got beat up got back into the car himself.

              Seems the guy who got beat up had it coming for not paying his dealer or something like that.

              The funny thing is that I went to school with one of the suspects. Not that I could of recognized him in the dark parking lot. Even the victim and the driver didn't recognize me. They thought I was a girl for one thing when they gave their statement to the police after the cops tracked them down after my supervisor called them.

              So I don't place much credence in witness statements.

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              • #8
                I mentioned on the other PTP thread that the suggestion had been made in the past that Stride might have screamed something in English which Schwartz, not having the ability to speak the language, might not have understood.

                We must remember that there was music coming from the IWMEC and, being that the scuffle was near to that, the sound might have been drowned out by the music, since Schwartz himself said that the yell wasn't really that loud - it might even have been more of a shocked gasp, or perhaps a grunting sound as she tried to free herself from the man's grip.

                Maybe she said "no!". Maybe she said "help!". Or maybe she said something that wasn't even a word.....it's hard to say.

                But we know that fights and scuffles were and are common on city streets on weekend nights, and though some people might see them or hear them, they pay little attention to them, and want to be as far removed from them as possible, lest they become involved as well and it turns into an all-in street brawl. Schwartz certainly deemed it wise to take the course of action to leave the area, and if we look at the MJK murder and the witness testimony of the scream of "Murder!", it was mentioned even then that such yells were not out of the ordinary at night time.

                So it sort of becomes part of the sub-conscious - you are aware it's happened but don't really register it or take any notice of it.

                Cheers,
                Adam.

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                • #9
                  That is what I thought, I think Schwartz spared a glance and saw what was going down and hot footed it out of there without really taking in any detail. I think he might of fleshed out what he saw later or relied on his memory of what he glimpsed which might of been spotty, depending on how much he saw of what was going down.

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                  • #10
                    I have to agree with Adam, if Stride was a victim, I believe that he saw her standing there and blitzed her. Unfortunately it was a busy street and JTR ended up getting spooked.

                    But was Berner Street busy between 12:45 and 1:00am, George? Not according to Fanny Mortimer. If it is assumed that she stood at her front door for a ten minute period that commenced a little after 12:45am, the only person she saw was Leon Goldstein. But Goldstein cannot have spooked the killer to the extent that he fled the scene because Mrs Mortimer saw no-one leave the yard.

                    Now I used to think that Jack was so vicious on Eddowes because he was interrupted with Stride so he was quite furious about how his night was going and took it out on poor Eddowes.

                    I tend to think that most of us have embraced a similar viewpoint at one time or another, George, but there is another way of looking at it. If the Stride murder is set aside, there is a clear pattern of steadily increasing ferocity from Nichols through to Kelly. In other words, since there was no pronounced escalation in the levels of violence inflicted on Chapman and Eddowes, there is nothing about the killer’s conduct in Mitre Square to suggest that he was especially angry or frustrated as a consequence of having been disturbed in Dutfield’s Yard.

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                    • #11
                      To go back for a moment to my original comment about no one hearing the scuffle between Stride and her assailant....what puzzles me is that no one heard anything...not even the noises the assailant made. Unless someone believes or would argue that he was assaulting Stride in near silence, then he had to have made some degree of noise as well.

                      I'd wager that the front windows of the IWEMC were closed that evening, not necessarily because of the weather ( it rained that evening ) but to keep the noises from inside ( singing, talking ) down and not to disturb the neighbors any more than their mere presence already did. I don't recall if discussion of the building's windows being up or down has ever been approached before.

                      If these windows were down, then there would be less concern on the part of the people inside to keep the noise or sounds from inside down.

                      To me, it would be far less likely for the same man who had murdered in an atmosphere of near silence ( Bucks Row & Hanbury Street ) to even consider performing the same sort of murder in Dutfield's Yard, considering that lights were on in the IWEMC, noise was undoubtedly being made, and the 'threat' of people arriving and subsequently entering the building at all times presented.

                      Schwartz mentions Broad Shoulders Man's gait....and if we accept elements from his story as being truthful ( the existence of Pipeman, the uttering of "Lipski !", the act of BSM tossing her down, her meager "screams", etc ), then the description of his gait...which suggests inebriation....then we have to give some consideration to the suggestion that Jack The Ripper showed up at work drunk...or nearly drunk.

                      We shouldn't , although suspect-theorists do and will continue to do, select whatever bits and pieces from Schwartz's story we want and avoid discussing the likelihood of Stride's assailant being an ostentatious and garrulous drunk.

                      A drunk, being less inhibited, will typically be louder and make more noise than someone sober and discreet. Yet, our Berner Street drunk was apparently capable of sufficient discretion.

                      I guess the thing that bothers me the most is that now I accept that I have been dishonest with myself for years now...and have casually overlooked the description of Schwartz's BSM's gait.... I have come to the conclusion that had Stride not seen this assailant as a drunk or a loser or a man without what she wanted at that particular moment...she would have accepted his suggestion for a kneetrembler or whatever the creep wanted...and she would have survived the evening.

                      That her assailant was cognizant of people inside the IWEMC, who were making noises and sounds and may very well have drowned out whatever sounds Stride made, as described by Schwartz....is really my personal issue at the moment.
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                      • #12
                        Hello Gary,

                        Well, hmmm, okay then it was a pretty quite night then on the street. That would make sense given how late it was. I was given to understand that the street was busy because of the International Working Men's Educational Socialist Club meeting that night.

                        As for Mrs Mortimer, I wonder what she did see. I get really iffy on witness testimony. She certainly missed JTR sneaking away. Unless she was uncertain of the time or Liz was killed at a later or earlier time. Perhaps JTR felt the sensation of being watched because Mrs. Mortimer's eye was glued to the entrance to the yard for 15 minuets?

                        Well as I have said on other threads I am 50/50 on Stride being one of JTR victims. I also said that I used to hold the theory that JTR was so savage with Eddowes because he was interrupted with Stride. While that might not be the case, still, I think he could of been interrupted while murdering Stride.

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                        • #13
                          Garry, George:

                          Far be it from my desire to enter into yet another Mortimer debate (those very points have been very well chronicled elsewhere) the simple fact is that her testimony must be taken with a generous pinch of salt, and under no circumstances should her testimony and her testimony alone be allowed to rule in or out a certain suspect or theory.

                          I won't go so far as to say that she was lying but simply that she was confused both with her times and what she heard/saw in the immediate aftermath of the murders. I've analysed it before but anybody can do that, and if they analyse it closely and objectively enough, draw the same conclusions. After all, she had no reason to be paying any real attention to what was going on in Berner Street, whereas Schwartz had no choice but to pay attention to it given that he walked straight into the scene. We've got no legitimate reason to disbelieve Schwartz.

                          Cheers,
                          Adam.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by How Brown View Post
                            I'd wager that the front windows of the IWEMC were closed that evening, not necessarily because of the weather ( it rained that evening ) but to keep the noises from inside ( singing, talking ) down and not to disturb the neighbors any more than their mere presence already did. I don't recall if discussion of the building's windows being up or down has ever been approached before.

                            If these windows were down, then there would be less concern on the part of the people inside to keep the noise or sounds from inside down.
                            "...The discussion closed between half-past eleven and twelve, when the bulk of the people left the premises, going through the street door. A number of people, about 25 or 30, remained behind in this upper hall, some conversing and others singing. The windows were partly open..."
                            Star, 1 Oct.

                            Regards, Jon S.
                            Regards, Jon S.
                            "
                            The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                            " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                            Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

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                            • #15
                              Adam I could see Mrs Mortimer standing at the door being noisy but for 15 minuets. If she did then she must of been bored to tears.


                              How and Jon S.

                              I also wonder what the men upstairs in the club heard? Probably not much as their attention would of been centered on their discussion or what other members were doing.

                              Although one of them might of saw something.

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