Points To Ponder ----Stride's Response, According To Schwartz

[Garry Wroe]

Expert Lars Davidson recently said Aaron was most probably a henophrenic Schizophrenic....which for those less informed also means he was paraniod...

Paranoia is not the dominant symptom in hebephrenic schizophrenia, Jeff. If it were, the sufferer would be diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic.

... and hebophrenic schizophrenics are the most likely to commit this type of crime.

Overwhelmingly, almost to the point of exclusivity, the psychotic who commits the Ripper-like murder is the paranoid schizophrenic.

[Howard Brown]

Caz:

I understand what you are suggesting.....but to me, BSM ( assuming that he was Stride's murderer ) can't be thought of as approaching Stride in such a way that would or could be considered conducive to any eventual plan of escape without being remembered by the two ( according to Schwartz ) persons who saw what he did. In short, there doesn't seem to have been much or as much thought given to the factor of drawing unnecessary attention to himself as there was in the two prior outdoor murders of Nichols and Chapman.

Not to argue against what Garry just wrote about "why didn't he rough Eddowes up in front of Lawende ?", ( one might suggest that BSM-now-Mitre Square Man had realized how foolish his Berner Street performance was during his trek to the Square ).....but that sort of performance in Berner Street isn't found in any of the other murder scenarios.

[Howard Brown]

Jeff;

This isn't relevant to the thread...but just so you know, Jews aren't a race, they're a people.
You can't become a Hottentot or Ainu, but you can become and by extension your progeny becoming, a Jew.
You can't leave your Nordic, Congoid, or Bushman gene pool, but you can leave Judaism.

[Jeff Leahy]

Jeff;

This isn't relevant to the thread...but just so you know, Jews aren't a race, they're a people.

Clearly if I've offended anyone here i apologise, it wasnt my main direction of thinking in my observations which are independant of race or religeon

[QUOTE=How Brown;153840You can't become a Hottentot or Ainu, but you can become and by extension your progeny becoming, a Jew.
You can't leave your Nordic, Congoid, or Bushman gene pool, but you can leave Judaism.[/QUOTE]

Actually it appears that genology suggests the jewish race mirrors the population of the country they inhabbit...which I admit goes against my original conclusions

Yours Jeff

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

I'm not quoting any other poster Jeff, not paranoid are you?

PS Nemo if your going to make these wilde claims will you please quote your sources

I would if they were wild claims Jeff, but any casual look at references to hebrephenic schizophrenia will back up everything I've said

What I'm unclear about are your claims relating to your understanding of Lars statements

Also your claim that "I've spent several years studying examoning and specializing in this area of research"

I'm very surprised to hear you came to the conclusion that Kosminski/the Ripper were hebrephenic schizophrenics independently from Lars due to your own research

In only August this year we had...

"...there is some truth that my opinions were largely formed around the advice given to me by Laars colleage. It was just that he couldnt do the program and recommended that Laars might be good as they work together.

I'll see what I can find on Hebophrenic Schizophrenia but my understanding is that this is the most potencially dangerous kind...

However as you know I'm very busy up until next weekend"

So if you've already researched hebrephenic schizophrenia perhaps you'd be so kind as to give us a definition of what it entails and how it relates to either Kosminski or the Ripper

Lars wouldn't really back you up in regard to Kosminski because according to your own statement in September this year...

"I can only give you what I understood from Dr Lars and his colleague Dr X.

Unfortunately we can only generalize on schizophrenia, so little is known and cases vary so much. What becomes interesting are specific case studies and how others with the illness behaved in situation X or Y.

What you cant do is say Aaron would have done this or that. Both experts were clear they would need to do a specific interveiw and treatment over a period of time with the patient for that. So even if we had detail notes about Aaron's illness it wouldn't necessarily tell them anything specific about his illness"


I'm not sure where your understanding arose from as you say now that a hebrephenic schizophrenic is the most likely to commit this type of crime, yet in September you said...

"I need to study Robs links on Violence and schizophrenia but Dr lars stated 'no more likely than other members of society to commit violent crime"

So I'd respectfully ask that you at least be consistent

I don't need to explain anything - It's you who are making definite claims about either or both Kosminski and the Ripper being a hebrephenic schizophrenic due to some perceived connection between periodical attacks and the like, which you or Lars could in no way predict in an individual case

I'll set up a thread for further discussion as it's a bit off topic

Regards

Nemo

[Howard Brown]

Jeff:

You haven't offended anyone as there was nothing said to offend .

Speaking of requiring ( in this case Neems ) folks to provide sources...I think your insistence on us having some considerable degree of evidence that Kozminski had blue eyes is lacking. In my immediate family, as I've said before, four people with four different eye colorations. We shouldn't just jump to the conclusion that AK had brown, blue or bloodshot eyes,buddy.

[Howard Brown]

I'll set up a thread for further discussion as it's a bit off topic
Nemo

Please do, buddy...as this thread, admittedly with help from myself, is heading for different pastures.

[Caroline Brown]

External factors were influencing his options at the other crime scenes too, Caz, but never induced him to attack another victim in full view of witnesses. And if Stride, why not Eddowes? Given his seeming disregard for witnesses on the night under scrutiny, why did he not rough up Eddowes in front of Lawende and company?

Stride, because maybe her attitude annoyed him and he lost his temper before realising he had witnesses?

Not Eddowes, because she happily went with him to Mitre Square and all Lawende and co saw was a couple acting friendly. He was in control of the situation.

Every time he went out with his knife he would have had different obstacles to overcome, any of which could have made a bloodthirsty killer angry or frustrated.

I still don't get why anyone would see him as an emotionless robot, who could and would have acted consistently, regardless of the victim's behaviour and the circumstances he found himself in.

Incidentally, I'm not sold on BS man being the killer, as there was plenty of time for a third witness to appear, wait for BS man to sod off, then go in for an Eddowes style kill, only to hear pony hooves approaching as he was overpowering Stride.

Love,

Caz
X

[Paul Sullivan]

Israel Schwartz/Harris/Lawende/Levy

Which railway arches did Schwartz run to? Was it the arches in Hooper Street or Pinchin Street?

If the latter, surely he would have run past his own home in Ellen St?

I'm guessing he was originally on the same side as Dutfield's Yard, saw the two men, gave a wide berth, and crosses over.

1st man (with Stride) shouts to 2nd man "Lipski", as Schwartz continues walking by, unaware 2nd man is now following.

Schwartz eventually realises he is being followed then runs apparently south towards the arches where the 2nd man doesn't chase that far.

This gives me the impression that the two men were in league with one another as the 2nd man wanted to frighten Schwartz and nothing else.

Soon afterwards, again interrupted by Diemschutz, both men head off, arriving at Mitre Sq.

They encounter Eddowes, but the man seen with her by Harris, Lawende and Levy is the 2nd man, the 1st man (the killer) is waiting in Mitre Sq.

[Cris Malone]

There is a considerable difference in description between the "2nd man" in Schwartz's description and the man Lewende and co. saw.

[CGP]

Which railway arches did Schwartz run to? Was it the arches in Hooper Street or Pinchin Street?

If the latter, surely he would have run past his own home in Ellen St?

I'm guessing he was originally on the same side as Dutfield's Yard, saw the two men, gave a wide berth, and crosses over.

1st man (with Stride) shouts to 2nd man "Lipski", as Schwartz continues walking by, unaware 2nd man is now following.

Schwartz eventually realises he is being followed then runs apparently south towards the arches where the 2nd man doesn't chase that far.

There's a discussion of this question here:
http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?p=222105

It's worth adding that a (probably garbled) report in the Echo referred to a chase along Fairclough Street.
http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=2774

As Rob House pointed out in that thread, the intersections with Fairclough Street are described as they would be seen when facing east. For what it's worth, that seems consistent with Rob Clack's suggestion in the other thread that Schwartz may have run east along Fairclough Street and then south along Christian Street. But west along Fairclough Street and then south along Back Church Lane would be another possibility.

[Curryong]

The Star, of the 1st October 1888, features a long interview with Schwartz. This interview is of course the one in which Scwartz recalls the second man as having red moustaches and a knife in his hand. The report states that Schwartz 'fled incontinently to his new lodgings'. They were situated in Backchurch Lane, where the Star reporter later ran him to earth.

[CGP]

The Star, of the 1st October 1888, features a long interview with Schwartz. This interview is of course the one in which Scwartz recalls the second man as having red moustaches and a knife in his hand. The report states that Schwartz 'fled incontinently to his new lodgings'. They were situated in Backchurch Lane, where the Star reporter later ran him to earth.

The address is given as 22 Helen [Ellen] Street, Backchurch Lane, but Ellen Street ran east from Back Church Lane, and Schwartz's address was close to the southern end of Berner Street. The position is marked approximately on this map posted by Wicker Man:
http://www.jtrforums.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=325
Actually, I think the blue circle should be two houses further west, judging by the Goad plan:
http://britishlibrary.georeferencer....HRlL/visualize

[Curryong]

It's unfortunate that Schwartz's original statement to police hasn't survived. Could it be that between Schwartz being voluble in Hungarian, an interpreter friend being exceedingly helpful and the English policeman taking the statement down, some muddle occurred? Schwartz might have said something like "I was ready to run to the railway arches I was so frightened" and somehow it got lost in translation.

None of the arches were probably that far away, but I just can't fathom why a person being chased by a man with a knife would go to lonely, deserted and dark railway arches (even ones utilised by a few transients) in the middle of the night in preference to bolting into his new home and slamming the door shut!

[CGP]

None of the arches were probably that far away, but I just can't fathom why a person being chased by a man with a knife would go to lonely, deserted and dark railway arches (even ones utilised by a few transients) in the middle of the night in preference to bolting into his new home and slamming the door shut!

Well, although the Star says he fled to his new lodgings, earlier on it implies that when he turned into Berner Street he didn't know whether or not his wife had moved house - he was going to see if she had.