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Point To Ponder : Was The Ripper The Second London S.K. In 1888 ?

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  • Point To Ponder : Was The Ripper The Second London S.K. In 1888 ?

    Those who don't believe in a Jack The Ripper might even say there weren't any serial killers around in the East End back in 1888.

    However and with that in mind, it just may be that the Ripper wasn't the first s.k. after all.

    Tom Wescott asks the question in his The Bank Holiday Murders whether Emma Smith and Martha Tabram were killed by the same hand....

    Taking it a step further....could the November 1887 murder of Emily Horsnell be included with Smith and Tabram....committed by the same hand...and precede Jack The Ripper ?

    This thread was set up by Keith Murray and within it the finds of Debra Arif and Gareth Williams are presented.
    http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....orsnell&page=2

    What are your views ?



    Thanks !
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  • #2
    inadvertent

    Hello Howard. Interesting question.

    Let's grant, for the sake of argument, that Emily, Emma and Martha died by the same hand. But surely the first two were killed inadvertently? Do accidental deaths contribute to a serial killer's tally?

    Cheers.
    LC

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    • #3
      LC:

      No offense, buddy....but kicking a woman nearly to death...and her being left in the same room to eventually die a few days later...isn't necessarily accidental or without intent.
      Neither is shoving a stick far up a lady's vagina, when death wouldn't be an unexpected result from such a ferocious attack.
      Tabram was flat out murdered...so we don't have any room for dispute there.

      By definition, three murders constitute a series.... whether accidentally or intentionally aren't factors...but being committed by the same hand is.

      In short, whether Joe Bloggs killed three with or without intent to kill isn't a factor. That it was Joe is. As soon as you physically assault anyone, the possibility of his or her death is presented.
      Horsnell's savage beating might be the one of the three where murderous intent may not have existed...in my opinion...

      I also think its possible that some ruffian or group of roughs ( at least two ) were involved in the death of all three.
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      • #4
        Wasn't Emma Smith attacked by a "Group" of men?

        I always thought that this would rule this out completely as a ripper victim.

        Regards

        Comment


        • #5
          killings

          Hello Howard. Thanks. None taken.

          Intent to kill is one thing; intent to maim, another.

          I am reminded of the discussion between Dr. Einstein (Peter Lorre) and Jonathan Brewster (Raymond Massey)--"No, no, no Jonny, the old ladies have killed twelve and you have killed twelve. They've done just as good (sic) as you."

          Cheers.
          LC

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          • #6
            Wasn't Emma Smith attacked by a "Group" of men?
            -Scott Johnson-

            Scott...far be it for me to dispute what Smith stated as having happened to her...but my point is that her murder, like the one preceding it ( Horsnell, 127 years ago this month ) and Tabram's....might have been committed by the same person or persons. There have been serial killers working in tandem...and even in threes.
            Witness :

            The Chicago Rippers of the 1980's....

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh3bsiQqCfg

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            • #7
              Scott:
              Forgot to mention that the one on the right, Robin Gecht, is said to have worked with John Wayne Gacy at one time.
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              • #8
                Originally posted by Scott Johnson View Post
                Wasn't Emma Smith attacked by a "Group" of men?

                I always thought that this would rule this out completely as a ripper victim.

                Regards
                It has been suggested that Smith may have invented the gang attack, to draw sympathy rather than admit she was soliciting a client that turned nasty.
                At this point in time, who knows...
                Regards, Jon S.
                "
                The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

                Comment


                • #9
                  bully

                  Hello Howard.

                  "my point is that her murder, like the one preceding it ( Horsnell, 127 years ago this month ) and Tabram's....might have been committed by the same person or persons."

                  Ah! but I'm good with that. looks like some kind of bully who overemphasises his point.

                  Cheers.
                  LC

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think it's quite possible that there was multiple murderers getting around London in the late 1880's - the question is where you draw the line between murderer and serial killer. Let's not forget the torso murders which were taking place at the same time as the JTR murders as well, though they were two different MO's and likely two different killers.

                    Re Emma Smith, given that she was on her deathbed I don't think she would have invented a story about what she was up to. Not many people would have been under any illusion about how she made a few extra pennies. One possibility though is that she might have been a victim of pimps or prostitution rings to whom she had done wrong by. She may not have wanted to name them for fear that they would be after her if she was to recover. Just a thought.

                    Cheers,
                    Adam.

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                    • #11
                      It seemed to be accepted knowledge at the time that there were individuals or gangs that roughed up prostitutes and stole their meager earnings. It's all about boundaries. When there are bullies who cross too many boundaries the possibility of one or more becoming a murderer on purpose or by callous disregard for life, is very possible. If such an individual enjoys the power of controlling life and death or if he is a sexual sadist and psychopath, the chance is good that he will become a serial killer.

                      It was apparently accepted fact that there were such bullies on the streets of Whitechapel. These bullies were fine with battering women. I think there is a very good chance there was another serial killer or possibly more than two. What sets JtR apart is his style if we can call it that. Even so there is much argument abpout exactly which and how many women he killed. I have long considered there was more than Jack operating at the time though I am fairly comfortable accepting the C-5 as Jack's work.

                      It is possible too that bullies running in a gang dared each other to increase individual brutality. I actually wouldn't be surprised to find that Jack was part of a gang and protected by a gang. Things in Tom's book made me consider this especially but I thought of it previously due to Emma Smith claiming a gang has assaulted her. Maybe it was a gang, maybe not, but any man or men collectively who can injure a woman as she was injured is a/are serial killer(s) in the making.
                      The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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                      • #12
                        She (Emma Smith ) may not have wanted to name them for fear that they would be after her if she was to recover. Just a thought.
                        -Adam Went-
                        And a damned good thought too, AW.
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                        • #13
                          serial killers

                          Hello Adam.

                          "I think it's quite possible that there was multiple murderers getting around London in the late 1880's - the question is where you draw the line between murderer and serial killer. Let's not forget the torso murders which were taking place at the same time as the JTR murders as well, though they were two different MO's and likely two different killers."

                          And that distinction is my main point. Personally, I don't see ANY serial killers.

                          Cheers.
                          LC

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                          • #14
                            Who would have thought?...lol.
                            Best Wishes,
                            Cris Malone
                            ______________________________________________
                            "Objectivity comes from how the evidence is treated, not the nature of the evidence itself. Historians can be just as objective as any scientist."

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                            • #15
                              see through

                              Hello Cris. Thanks. Just like my wife, you can easily see through me. (heh-heh)

                              Cheers.
                              LC

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