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The Polish Jew

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  • The Polish Jew

    If anyone's gonna rehash something it'll probably be me, being as I am a relatively amateur ripperologist and nowhere near as knowledgable as all of you admirable souls.

    So here we go. I find it difficult believe that a jewish witness would refuse to identify a fellow jew suspect as the ripper. It's certainly admirable that he wouldn't want to, but in light of Jack's nocturnal proclivities, wouldn't the desire to protect the public be a priority? I know it's all been said before. I'll get my coat. :-)

  • #2
    Hi, Peter. We have had some really good discussions about this. I wish I could name the threads but can't and suppose they were under something about the Seaside Home identification. (Delving into your question can quickly move to whether or not there was a Seaside Home identification and all sorts of things get brought in.)

    My personal belief is that Jewish law does not allow testimony about a crime unless the witness sees the crime committed. So if Lavende for instance saw Kosminski talking to Kate just outside Mitre Square, that means nothing as far as a subsequent murder. Others here have said I am wrong but I believe there is sound basis for my belief.

    We have to consider the Israel Lipski case one year prior to JtR's activities. That case is well worth reading in the Old Bailey online. It gives a great picture of life in the East End as well as a horrific crime. Quickly summarizing, this case is about a Jewish man who killed a married--and pregnant--Jewish woman who lived in the same rooming house. Lipski got gentile justice and was hanged. Though the case was all Jewish, for reasons I do not understand anti-Semitism has been mentioned in connexion with the case.

    Many of the Jews from Eastern and Central Europe who had recently immigrated to England were running from the tsar's pogroms. It would certainly make sense that Jews would not want JtR to be found to be one of their own. They must have wondered how much it would take for pogroms to begin in England or whatever other new lands they sought.

    There is also the possibility that the suspect was identified by a family member and that needs no explanation.
    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript


    • #3
      'Pogrom'. Great word. I had to look that one up. Your belief is correct though it can differ depending on certain situations - I discovered from minimal research. I'm certainly no expert.

      Any particular facet of our over-all topic leads to many others. I'm searching for a specific area I can get my teeth into researchwise. I'm interested in Mary Kelly and Joseph Barnett, but am disheartened to recently learn that there exists some doubt as to whether the Miller's Court body was indeed Mary. It's tantalizing but disappointing if it wasn't. It would be especially heartbreaking if that happened to someone who was never remembered for it. But I digress.


      • #4
        There are some in-depth dissertations at Casebook about the body in room 13 not being Mary. I do not agree with that idea but there are researchers who strongly argue this idea.
        The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript


        • #5
          Do you have a link handy? I can just go look. I tried to join up there but got no reply.


          • #6
            Originally posted by Peter Kearns View Post
            Do you have a link handy? I can just go look. I tried to join up there but got no reply.
            Believe me, you don't want one of my links. They hardly ever work! (I am fairly cyber-ignorant.)

            Anyway, I just go there and use the search engine. I am not a member. Anyone can read anything there. You can't comment or post unless you are a member.

            I think one title of a dissertation is "Mary Kelly Survived". If you can bring up the basic subject there will be a good line up. The search engine works real good with either terms or titles.
            The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript


            • #7
              I'll do that. Thanks for the help Anna.


              • #8
                Thank you.


                • #9
                  Hi Paul

                  The year previous there was a case involving a Jewish man named Israel Lipski in the area (Batty Street) being accused of killing a fellow lodger, a pregnant woman by the name of Miriam Angel.

                  He was hanged for a crime that is still dividing opinion today as to whether he was guilty or not. It also caused a lot of anti-semitic feeling and a lot of Jewish people felt he had been made a scapegoat.

                  I'm not sure that they would point the finger at another Jewish person so soon after this without being 100% certain he was guilty.
                  If you're going to be two-faced at least make one of them pretty.


                  • #10
                    Some police officials seemed to believe that this was the case. Not only Anderson and Swanson, but city detective, Henry Cox, recalled having to disguise their intentions on a stakeout while "drinking their coffee, smoking their excellent cigarettes and partaking of kosher rum."

                    As Anna mentioned the pogroms, it would be natural for the more recent immigrants to be wary of people in authority, and of people in authority to pick up on that. Doesn't mean that the murderer was necessarily in their ranks though. Even today, law enforcement officials lament the lack of cooperation in certain ethnic communities. Human nature changes very little.
                    Best Wishes,
                    Cris Malone
                    "Objectivity comes from how the evidence is treated, not the nature of the evidence itself. Historians can be just as objective as any scientist."