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Did Mary Jane Kelly Really Exist?

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    Martyn Priestnall
    Inactive Member

  • Martyn Priestnall
    replied
    Anna, interesting idea.

    Though I wonder why MJK supposedly stuck to the Maria Jeanette name if she "did not like the part"? (if that's what Joe Barnett said?)

    I always find that phrase a little ambiguous. Did it mean 'role'? What role?

    I don't fully understand that phrase. Anyone care to clarify?

    Martyn

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  • Debra Arif
    Registered User

  • Debra Arif
    replied
    That is what I had in mind. That Marie Jeanette was courtesy of the Morgensterns as a fake identity.
    Johannes Morgenstern marrried a woman named Johanna Maria.
    Adrianus Valk, son of Simon Valk, brother in law of Johannes Morgenstern, married Antoinetta Kemeling, who also went by the name Jeanette Kemeling and variant spellings of the surname as shown in the 79 Pennington St thread.
    Adrianus wife Antonetta Smitts also went by the name Jeanette.

    Marinus is a male name, separate to my mentioning the Morgensterns use of Maria and Jeannette and I'm not aware of anyone saying any different.

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  • Anna Morris
    Registered User

  • Anna Morris
    replied
    I just got a bright idea! Debra is thinking about the Marie Jeanette angle and that has always been important to me. Joe B. said it was her "real" name as I recall.

    Could that name be her name on a faked up passport to get her to France? Might that be very impressive to a young Irish girl? All her life she was plain Mary Jane Whoever but then her "real" name gets printed on a passport? (I wonder what the Morgensterns called her when she was with them in London?)

    I have absolutely no idea how the passport system worked from England to France but have read how England was trying to slow the prostitution of young girls. Could there have been a scam to provide, say, a Dutch or Belgian passport with a name like Marie Jeanette, the young woman travelling in company with her father or uncle or something? That should provide a smooth arrival in the destination country? Especially if the male companion was a "gentleman" with impressive credentials?

    (And one other small comment I think I have made before. Maria can be a man's name in some cultures. Though Maries may be common in the Morgenstern clan, the one named Marin comes from a different root and has nothing to do with Marie or Mary.)

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  • Martyn Priestnall
    Inactive Member

  • Martyn Priestnall
    replied
    Thanks Gary!

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  • Martyn Priestnall
    Inactive Member

  • Martyn Priestnall
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
    Martyn, I made my different lists from trawling the records on FMP.
    It depends on what you mean by comprehensive? As regards men named Kelly? Men named Henry? Men named John? Men born in Limerick? I've had a bash at a few things but not posted a lot of it. The service, pension and attestation records for the Scots Guards are on FMP. Quite a lot compared to most regiments archives. I search them regularly looking for inspiration.

    I also did a very basic tot up of the number of Irish Catholics who were attested in to the Scots Guards from the attestation registers because there were questions about how common that would be. I think it came out around 6 or 7 percent of the Scots Guards attested in the 80's were Catholic or Irish Catholics.

    Debra,

    Thanks for your reply. I'm not sure what I meant by a comprehensive list myself! I just posted my would-be MJKs and I want to research them to see how that much they match up with MJK's supposed history, including any connection to a scots guards brother. None of them happen to be a Kelly but have been selected from the context of my candidate/line of enquiry and their MJK potential as it were. Good to know I can find some Scot Guard's records on FMP, so thanks for that.

    Regards,

    Martyn

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  • Gary Barnett
    Rambler

  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Martyn Priestnall View Post
    And finally...

    4. Mary Ann <SomeWelshName> but born in Ireland.

    This is interesting because it connects to the Prater family and I can connect my candidate to the Praters. Ooh er!

    I haven't done any work on this to firm this up, but on the face of it, looks interesting.

    Debra's Ripperlogogist Prater article has no doubt save me a lot work in following the above up, so thank you Debra.

    This also kind of demostrates what Gary stated earlier "Of course, unless you've solved the case, you can't know who or what is peripheral or central to it.

    Martyn
    Interesting stuff! Good luck with your search.

    Leave a comment:

  • Martyn Priestnall
    Inactive Member

  • Martyn Priestnall
    replied
    And finally...

    4. Mary Ann <SomeWelshName> but born in Ireland.

    This is interesting because it connects to the Prater family and I can connect my candidate to the Praters. Ooh er!

    I haven't done any work on this to firm this up, but on the face of it, looks interesting.

    Debra's Ripperlogogist Prater article has no doubt save me a lot work in following the above up, so thank you Debra.

    This also kind of demostrates what Gary stated earlier "Of course, unless you've solved the case, you can't know who or what is peripheral or central to it.

    Martyn

    Leave a comment:

  • Martyn Priestnall
    Inactive Member

  • Martyn Priestnall
    replied
    Quote
    You're welcome, Martin. Do all your 'MJKs' have that name?
    Unquote

    The short answer: No.

    Long answer continued:

    2. Maria Barrett.
    Because of the connection to my LoE, DOB close, name, and Sickert (sorry!) Barret painting.

    3. Mary Ann X and Ruth X. (Not sure yet if related).

    These could work potentionally very well within the context of my LoE.

    Mary Ann X DOB 1863 so that fits nicely. But born in Essex. Don't laugh! I found another person
    of the same name but DOB 1865 born in Limerick. So my thought
    was Mary Ann X might have borrowed the identity of the Limerick one. A bit
    tenous I know but that's the nature of the game with MJK...

    Martyn

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  • Anna Morris
    Registered User

  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
    I noticed that the names Jeannette and Maria in that combination were common in Dutch records. Jeannette seem to have been used more as a first name. The surname Lawrens also pops up, which made me double take when I saw a Jeanette Maria Lawrens!
    That IS interesting. I presume Lawrens is pronounced Lavrans as in "Kristen Lavransdotter"? But I could see it becoming Lawrence in the English speaking world.

    Marie and Maria are common names especially in Catholic countries. Sometimes there is a little more to it than just name choice. Like Empress Maria Theresa gave all her girls the first name Marie to honour Jesus' mother. It was the rest of their names that really counted. For instance (Marie) Antonia became Marie Antoinette when she moved to France.

    Those odd bits add to difficulties with mathematically narrowing the field of possibilities.

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  • Gary Barnett
    Rambler

  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
    We ruled out Bridget Kelly. Sadly I put an end to that when I found her immigration and death record in New York. However she had a couple sisters, one named Mary. They would all be about the right age and so far as I know there is no further information on them.
    Thanks, Anna. I couldn't remember if we'd taken it any further with the sisters.

    Leave a comment:

  • Gary Barnett
    Rambler

  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
    I noticed that the names Jeannette and Maria in that combination were common in Dutch records. Jeannette seem to have been used more as a first name. The surname Lawrens also pops up, which made me double take when I saw a Jeanette Maria Lawrens!
    Blimey! Mrs Hewitt's drover??

    Leave a comment:

  • Anna Morris
    Registered User

  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
    That's interesting, Anna.

    I seem to remember we were curious about one of Bridget Kelly's sisters at one point. Did we look into her and rule her out do you remember?
    We ruled out Bridget Kelly. Sadly I put an end to that when I found her immigration and death record in New York. However she had a couple sisters, one named Mary. They would all be about the right age and so far as I know there is no further information on them.

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  • Debra Arif
    Registered User

  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
    A couple years ago, using my basic crude techniques, I found more Marie Jeanettes in Dutch records than anywhere else, including France and Belgium where I would expect to find quite a few.

    The Dutch spelling for Jeanette is Janetje or similar variation.
    I noticed that the names Jeannette and Maria in that combination were common in Dutch records. Jeannette seem to have been used more as a first name. The surname Lawrens also pops up, which made me double take when I saw a Jeanette Maria Lawrens!

    Leave a comment:

  • Martyn Priestnall
    Inactive Member

  • Martyn Priestnall
    replied
    Gary,

    As mentioned, all 4 MJK possibilities have been selected because they
    connect to my candidate/line of equiry (LoE) in some way (location/personnel) and also connect to the back story somehow to the WMs.

    1. Margaret Davies, who has been mentioned way back in 2004 on CB.

    https://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4926/13452.html

    I have looked at her before very quickly and have some info on her,
    which I will post on new thread in the near future. On re-reading it one time, Nina's comment "I also found the reference to Margaret Davies odd" caught my eye and made look at her again and consider here more closely.

    From memory, there's 3 x Margaret Davies born at same time/same place,
    but 3 Davies don't seem such a big task to eliminate at MJK by seeing if they survived beyond 09/11/1888.

    The surname 'Rosser' is connected to M.D. per the census entries. Debra listed a David Rosser as a scots guard.
    It might take some genealogical gymnastics (ie swap the backstory of MJK's brother and husband around) but, working from memory
    (and imagination), M.D. could have married this David Rosser???

    Both Simon Wood and David Orsam have made suggestions as to why Dr Gabe was at Millers Court on 09/11/1888. If M.D. was MJK, then perhaps he was there to identify MJK...just speculation though.

    Simon posted some useful info on Dr Gabe over on CB, so thanks for that.
    https://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=10225

    To be continued...

    Martyn






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  • Debra Arif
    Registered User

  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
    It may contain records that have already been trawled through by Ripperologists. I've never searched for MJK's Davis/ies before, so I don't know if there's anything new there.
    No, I haven't either. A bit too much like hard work looking for a Davi(e)s in Wales although I did research and rule out one that Lynn Cates asked me about once.

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