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Did Mary Jane Kelly Really Exist?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
    That's interesting, Anna.

    I seem to remember we were curious about one of Bridget Kelly's sisters at one point. Did we look into her and rule her out do you remember?
    We ruled out Bridget Kelly. Sadly I put an end to that when I found her immigration and death record in New York. However she had a couple sisters, one named Mary. They would all be about the right age and so far as I know there is no further information on them.
    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
      I noticed that the names Jeannette and Maria in that combination were common in Dutch records. Jeannette seem to have been used more as a first name. The surname Lawrens also pops up, which made me double take when I saw a Jeanette Maria Lawrens!
      Blimey! Mrs Hewitt's drover??

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
        We ruled out Bridget Kelly. Sadly I put an end to that when I found her immigration and death record in New York. However she had a couple sisters, one named Mary. They would all be about the right age and so far as I know there is no further information on them.
        Thanks, Anna. I couldn't remember if we'd taken it any further with the sisters.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
          I noticed that the names Jeannette and Maria in that combination were common in Dutch records. Jeannette seem to have been used more as a first name. The surname Lawrens also pops up, which made me double take when I saw a Jeanette Maria Lawrens!
          That IS interesting. I presume Lawrens is pronounced Lavrans as in "Kristen Lavransdotter"? But I could see it becoming Lawrence in the English speaking world.

          Marie and Maria are common names especially in Catholic countries. Sometimes there is a little more to it than just name choice. Like Empress Maria Theresa gave all her girls the first name Marie to honour Jesus' mother. It was the rest of their names that really counted. For instance (Marie) Antonia became Marie Antoinette when she moved to France.

          Those odd bits add to difficulties with mathematically narrowing the field of possibilities.
          The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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          • #65
            Quote
            You're welcome, Martin. Do all your 'MJKs' have that name?
            Unquote

            The short answer: No.

            Long answer continued:

            2. Maria Barrett.
            Because of the connection to my LoE, DOB close, name, and Sickert (sorry!) Barret painting.

            3. Mary Ann X and Ruth X. (Not sure yet if related).

            These could work potentionally very well within the context of my LoE.

            Mary Ann X DOB 1863 so that fits nicely. But born in Essex. Don't laugh! I found another person
            of the same name but DOB 1865 born in Limerick. So my thought
            was Mary Ann X might have borrowed the identity of the Limerick one. A bit
            tenous I know but that's the nature of the game with MJK...

            Martyn

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            • #66
              And finally...

              4. Mary Ann <SomeWelshName> but born in Ireland.

              This is interesting because it connects to the Prater family and I can connect my candidate to the Praters. Ooh er!

              I haven't done any work on this to firm this up, but on the face of it, looks interesting.

              Debra's Ripperlogogist Prater article has no doubt save me a lot work in following the above up, so thank you Debra.

              This also kind of demostrates what Gary stated earlier "Of course, unless you've solved the case, you can't know who or what is peripheral or central to it.

              Martyn

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Martyn Priestnall View Post
                And finally...

                4. Mary Ann <SomeWelshName> but born in Ireland.

                This is interesting because it connects to the Prater family and I can connect my candidate to the Praters. Ooh er!

                I haven't done any work on this to firm this up, but on the face of it, looks interesting.

                Debra's Ripperlogogist Prater article has no doubt save me a lot work in following the above up, so thank you Debra.

                This also kind of demostrates what Gary stated earlier "Of course, unless you've solved the case, you can't know who or what is peripheral or central to it.

                Martyn
                Interesting stuff! Good luck with your search.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                  Martyn, I made my different lists from trawling the records on FMP.
                  It depends on what you mean by comprehensive? As regards men named Kelly? Men named Henry? Men named John? Men born in Limerick? I've had a bash at a few things but not posted a lot of it. The service, pension and attestation records for the Scots Guards are on FMP. Quite a lot compared to most regiments archives. I search them regularly looking for inspiration.

                  I also did a very basic tot up of the number of Irish Catholics who were attested in to the Scots Guards from the attestation registers because there were questions about how common that would be. I think it came out around 6 or 7 percent of the Scots Guards attested in the 80's were Catholic or Irish Catholics.

                  Debra,

                  Thanks for your reply. I'm not sure what I meant by a comprehensive list myself! I just posted my would-be MJKs and I want to research them to see how that much they match up with MJK's supposed history, including any connection to a scots guards brother. None of them happen to be a Kelly but have been selected from the context of my candidate/line of enquiry and their MJK potential as it were. Good to know I can find some Scot Guard's records on FMP, so thanks for that.

                  Regards,

                  Martyn

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                  • #69
                    Thanks Gary!

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                    • #70
                      I just got a bright idea! Debra is thinking about the Marie Jeanette angle and that has always been important to me. Joe B. said it was her "real" name as I recall.

                      Could that name be her name on a faked up passport to get her to France? Might that be very impressive to a young Irish girl? All her life she was plain Mary Jane Whoever but then her "real" name gets printed on a passport? (I wonder what the Morgensterns called her when she was with them in London?)

                      I have absolutely no idea how the passport system worked from England to France but have read how England was trying to slow the prostitution of young girls. Could there have been a scam to provide, say, a Dutch or Belgian passport with a name like Marie Jeanette, the young woman travelling in company with her father or uncle or something? That should provide a smooth arrival in the destination country? Especially if the male companion was a "gentleman" with impressive credentials?

                      (And one other small comment I think I have made before. Maria can be a man's name in some cultures. Though Maries may be common in the Morgenstern clan, the one named Marin comes from a different root and has nothing to do with Marie or Mary.)
                      The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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                      • #71
                        That is what I had in mind. That Marie Jeanette was courtesy of the Morgensterns as a fake identity.
                        Johannes Morgenstern marrried a woman named Johanna Maria.
                        Adrianus Valk, son of Simon Valk, brother in law of Johannes Morgenstern, married Antoinetta Kemeling, who also went by the name Jeanette Kemeling and variant spellings of the surname as shown in the 79 Pennington St thread.
                        Adrianus wife Antonetta Smitts also went by the name Jeanette.

                        Marinus is a male name, separate to my mentioning the Morgensterns use of Maria and Jeannette and I'm not aware of anyone saying any different.

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                        • #72
                          Anna, interesting idea.

                          Though I wonder why MJK supposedly stuck to the Maria Jeanette name if she "did not like the part"? (if that's what Joe Barnett said?)

                          I always find that phrase a little ambiguous. Did it mean 'role'? What role?

                          I don't fully understand that phrase. Anyone care to clarify?

                          Martyn

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                          • #73
                            This from the Birmingham Daily Mail of 27/8/1881 gives a flavour of how the placeurs advertised the women they sought to traffic to the continent.

                            image.jpeg

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                            • #74
                              According to MJK, via Barnett, she was of full age by the time she landed in the Highway though? I think more she was influenced to take those names?
                              I was reading today about a man named Rogers and Max or Marx Schulz who apparently were at the London end of things. Have you come acrossthose names, Gary?

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                              • #75
                                Here is something for everyone to work on. If we could find T.W. Snagge's report, it would be interesting.

                                From "South Wales Echo", May, 1886.
                                Attached Files
                                The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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