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Did Mary Jane Kelly Really Exist?

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  • #76
    Here is another interesting item from 1881.
    Attached Files
    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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    • #77
      In the clip I posted, #77 below, some of it has been sanitized. It states that the English girl Louisa was at first rejected because of her "youthful appearance." There is a much better account of this case and matters leading to this case. (When I feel a little better I will try to post a link to that.)

      As I understand it, Belgian law allowed young girls to be prostitutes in brothels IF they had had prior experience in the profession.

      Louisa was examined by a doctor and found to be a virgin. She was re-examined by another doctor and found to be a virgin. So she was sent to another location, I think it would be in Holland, and soon she was no longer a virgin.
      The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
        Here is something for everyone to work on. If we could find T.W. Snagge's report, it would be interesting.

        From "South Wales Echo", May, 1886.
        'English' nationality? Does that exclude Irish, Scots and Welsh?

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
          'English' nationality? Does that exclude Irish, Scots and Welsh?
          I skimmed through quite a bit of information on the Belgian prostitution system today. Some sources seem to single out English girls as highly sought and Irish and Scottish girls were also very desired but are mentioned separately. I saw no mention of Welsh girls specifically.

          The Louisa Hennessy case dealt specifically with an English girl and maybe that is why there is a slant that way? Or that girls were especially recruited in London for a quick trip across the channel? England to France and too much bother to drag them in from Ireland, Scotland or Wales? Just an idea.
          The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
            'English' nationality? Does that exclude Irish, Scots and Welsh?
            Hard to tell, given that "English/England" are so often incorrectly used to refer to "British/Britain".
            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

            "Suche Nullen"
            (F. Nietzsche)

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
              According to MJK, via Barnett, she was of full age by the time she landed in the Highway though? I think more she was influenced to take those names?
              I was reading today about a man named Rogers and Max or Marx Schulz who apparently were at the London end of things. Have you come acrossthose names, Gary?
              I haven't come across those names before. Did they operate in the East End?

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                Hard to tell, given that "English/England" are so often incorrectly used to refer to "British/Britain".
                I remember reading somewhere that continental brothels were reluctant to employ English or Irish girls because they were troublesome.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                  I haven't come across those names before. Did they operate in the East End?
                  I don't know, Gary. They were mentioned in a prominent case of under-age trafficking reported extensively in this snazzily titled weekly circular
                  'The Shield: the Anti-Contagious Diseases Acts Association's weekly circular '

                  They regularly went in to great depth on the cases of trafficking to Belgium and other parts of the continent. Josephine Butler was involved with the campaign against the Contagious Diseases Act.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                    I remember reading somewhere that continental brothels were reluctant to employ English or Irish girls because they were troublesome.
                    But did they mean "British or Irish", for the same reason as I previously mentioned? (i.e. the tendency to use "Engish/England" to refer to "British/Britain")
                    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                    "Suche Nullen"
                    (F. Nietzsche)

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                      But did they mean "British or Irish", for the same reason as I previously mentioned? (i.e. the tendency to use "Engish/England" to refer to "British/Britain")
                      I can't remember the context now, but as you say 'English' is often used to mean British. And I don't imagine women from the rougher parts of Cardiff or Glasgow were any less troublesome then their English/Irish equivalents.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                        And I don't imagine women from the rougher parts of Cardiff or Glasgow were any less troublesome then their English/Irish equivalents.
                        Neither do I
                        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                        "Suche Nullen"
                        (F. Nietzsche)

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                        • #87
                          It doesn't help much but I'm posting this.


                          https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/prin...=t18840915-917

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
                            It doesn't help much but I'm posting this.


                            https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/prin...=t18840915-917
                            From what I've read Klyberg took the two girls to Holland the day after he had picked them up. They obtained copies of their older sisters' birth certs, but there's no mention of passports.

                            One of the girls was snapped up by the first brothel he approached, but he couldn't offload the other girl, Fanny. She apparently had burn scars on her chest and arms which made her unacceptable, and although Klyberg gradually reduced the price he was asking for her from £12. to just enough to cover his expenses, there were no takers and he had to bring her back to London.

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                            • #89
                              Actually, I'm just wondering how MJK got back. I think she spent two weeks there? (Barnett) Unless MJK had deformities or whatever, one would have expected the ponces to have taken her passport from her to keep her trapped.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
                                Actually, I'm just wondering how MJK got back. I think she spent two weeks there? (Barnett) Unless MJK had deformities or whatever, one would have expected the ponces to have taken her passport from her to keep her trapped.
                                So much of Mary's story does not quite add up. She went to France with a "gentleman", came back in a couple weeks when she did not like her stay in Paris AND she had a "box of costly dresses."

                                Experiences of other girls show them being trafficked, sold, passports confiscated, they get stuck wherever they are and they are not enriched.

                                So, was Mary trafficked or did a "gentleman" take her to Paris as a private escort?
                                The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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