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Did Mary Jane Kelly Really Exist?

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    Gary Barnett
    Rambler

  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
    Well I'm completely charmless, so it couldn't have been me.
    Once again, a little green thingummybob has mysteriously appeared at the top of my post.

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  • Gary Barnett
    Rambler

  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
    The false modesty recently attributed to me by one charmer prevents me from revealing the fact that I have solved the case....and I know who Mary Jane Kelly really was too!
    Well I'm completely charmless, so it couldn't have been me.

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  • Debra Arif
    Registered User

  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
    Of course, unless you've solved the case, you can't know who or what is peripheral or central to it.

    Everyone's heard of John McCarthy, not so many will have heard of Stephen Maywood. Which of them was more involved with Kelly, particularly her 'business' activities? I couldn't tell you, but I wouldn't bet against it being Maywood.
    The false modesty recently attributed to me by one charmer prevents me from revealing the fact that I have solved the case....and I know who Mary Jane Kelly really was too!

    Leave a comment:

  • Gary Barnett
    Rambler

  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Of course, unless you've solved the case, you can't know who or what is peripheral or central to it.

    Everyone's heard of John McCarthy, not so many will have heard of Stephen Maywood. Which of them was more involved with Kelly, particularly her 'business' activities? I couldn't tell you, but I wouldn't bet against it being Maywood.

    Leave a comment:

  • Gary Barnett
    Rambler

  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
    I'm announcing a call to arms for all peripherologists.
    I'm imagining a sort of Deb's Army.

    'Don't tell him your name, Lechmere!'

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  • Robert Linford
    Researcher Extraordinaire

  • Robert Linford
    replied
    Good one!

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  • Debra Arif
    Registered User

  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
    Debs, I want you to remember that the torso is just the trunk of a person - so forget the arms and legs. They're just peripheral bits.
    I'm announcing a call to arms for all peripherologists.

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  • Debra Arif
    Registered User

  • Debra Arif
    replied
    With the Morgenstern's use of the names Marie and Jeannette, (names often used in combination in Dutch reords) I also think there is a good chance that may be where the 'Marie Jeanette' name originated. The Morgensterns were also Catholics but their names are spelt the same in the London Catholic records as they are in the Dutch census entries and Belgian police immigration records.

    The costly box of dresses has been talked about a lot in relation to high class prostitution over the years as it is an indicator that she was involved in that profession. Girls working in brothels on the continent normally had their own clothes locked away and were forced to wear special costumes that weren't suitable to wear outside a brothel. I wonder how that might fit in to the box of dresses story and being trafficked from a West End brothel?

    I mentioned the finding in the records of people mentioned by Barnett simply to illustrate that there must have been some truth in what MJK told Barnett about her life in London since 1884 for those who feel Barnett fabricated or was fed this information to deceive.

    We don't know what part these named characters actually really played though, as you say. I found recently that it looks like Adrianus Morgenstern was found guilty of some sort of assault and served a prison sentence for it abroad. The Joseph Fleming aka James Evans seems to have had a lot of problems that caused him to be in and out of asylums, maybe even prison too as I am following up on at the moment to see if it's the same man. There was also another man named Joseph Fleming in Bethnal Green of a similar age. This man spent the first 25 years of his life in the workhouse and was in and out of prison a few times.

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  • Anna Morris
    Registered User

  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Thank you, Sam.

    ~~~~~
    I once read some really nasty stuff about prostitution in Belgium in the nineteenth century. I don't remember what I read but the trade there was said to be especially peculiar. With that in mind I have long considered MJK having been taken to Belgium.

    If she made up most of her background and family details, I have another idea about Marie Jeanette being her "real" name. If we believe Lizzie Allbrook, Mary was tired of her sordid life and wished she could return home. Maybe she cherished a decent name the Catholic church had given her at baptism. Marie Jeanette for Mary Jane seems like it would fit in with some of the half Latin attempts to record personal names in the parishes.

    Concerning the variously named people being found where they should be at the time, that is great but I wonder how much their stories were sanitized? Did Mary own the box of "costly" dresses or did they belong to an organisation? Mary was fond of "another" man named Joe who ill used her. We sort of think this might have been Fleming but it is also possible that someone in the controlling end of organised prostitution was a Joe or called Joe. Was Mary "ill used" because she left the organisation?

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  • Howard Brown
    Registrar

  • Howard Brown
    replied
    Bump Up

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  • Gary Barnett
    Rambler

  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
    Debs, I want you to remember that the torso is just the trunk of a person - so forget the arms and legs. They're just peripheral bits.
    And the bonce??

    Leave a comment:

  • Robert Linford
    Researcher Extraordinaire

  • Robert Linford
    replied
    Debs, I want you to remember that the torso is just the trunk of a person - so forget the arms and legs. They're just peripheral bits.

    Leave a comment:

  • Debra Arif
    Registered User

  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
    Debs,

    If you want to be a real Ripperologist, you need to bone up (?) on the details and timings of Buck's Row and Berners Street, have an opinion on Hutch, and at all costs avoid showing an interest in Eddowes extended family. As for the torsos - only a handful of crazed Lechmerians are interested in them.

    Why spoil the fun by adding more complexity?

    Gary
    I'm well boned up, Gary. The torsos are the next big academia thing after the next big feminist thing next March!

    Leave a comment:

  • Gary Barnett
    Rambler

  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
    I know! All the time I've wasted on peripheral characters and trying to understand the main characters through the peripherals. Nearly as much time as I've spent on digging out and posting primary source material on the torso cases.
    Debs,

    If you want to be a real Ripperologist, you need to bone up (?) on the details and timings of Buck's Row and Berners Street, have an opinion on Hutch, and at all costs avoid showing an interest in Eddowes extended family. As for the torsos - only a handful of crazed Lechmerians are interested in them.

    Why spoil the fun by adding more complexity?

    Gary

    Leave a comment:

  • Debra Arif
    Registered User

  • Debra Arif
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
    You should stop concentrating on all those 'peripheral' characters, they'll never lead anywhere.
    I know! All the time I've wasted on peripheral characters and trying to understand the main characters through the peripherals. Nearly as much time as I've spent on digging out and posting primary source material on the torso cases.

    Leave a comment:

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