Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Did Mary Jane Kelly Really Exist?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Anna Morris
    replied
    My position is to only comment if I think I have something to add or some new research. Lately I haven't done much research to add anything. A lot of great research has already been done so there is less to look for although we still have some black holes like MJK.

    I think when we find MJK we will find she does have a traceable past but it might not be what we expect. Maybe we will find her occasionally in a workhouse or asylum though she was still young enough maybe she managed to find men who could take care of her.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mark Kent
    replied
    Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
    This is another for-what-it's-worth but it reminds me of MJK.

    Gabrielle "Coco" Chanel was born illegitimate in 1883, to poor parents who eventually married. Her father sold cheap clothing to country folks and travelled from market to market. At age 12 her mother died of TB. The father, unable to care for his children, sent the two brothers to work on farms and the three girls to convent schools. In the school, Gabrielle did learn good manners, grooming and some other useful skills. Apparently the school was also unpleasant and she left school around age 16, entering the workforce in menial jobs.

    There are a number of witty quotes from Coco Chanel, in some of which she more or less said her background was so grim she had to invent a different life story. The name Coco may have come from a song she sang at a cabaret or it might be a French term for a kept woman since Chanel moved ahead in the world by pairing with wealthy men. (Also at that time, actually until 1965 according to some sources, France did not allow women to own their own businesses or have their own bank accounts. I certainly do not blame Coco for doing what she had to in order to have her business.)

    So, she had a rough start, but gained good manners and skills at convent school, entered workforce young, had theatrical ambitions, openly lied about past, was obviously an "artist of no mean degree" so to speak, adopted a nickname, depended on lovers to succeed.

    Coco succeeded. I suggest, in my opinion, MJK had a similar background but she ended up a murder victim. (I can't back up what I think because we still have no idea who was MJK but to me, all the bits and pieces paint this picture in my mind.)

    Thanks for this, Anna. Interesting comparison.

    I notice the thread seems to have gone dead, like most threads on these forums. No one sees a relationship to Bouquet /Buki etc. from Amsterdam or they have no opinion. Just silence and another thread that ends in silence.The problem with both this forum and Casebook, is interesting points get raised and then the thread goes dead. No further research or commentary. People only respond to new threads and then we debate constantly...and then...silence..

    Leave a comment:


  • Anna Morris
    replied
    This is another for-what-it's-worth but it reminds me of MJK.

    Gabrielle "Coco" Chanel was born illegitimate in 1883, to poor parents who eventually married. Her father sold cheap clothing to country folks and travelled from market to market. At age 12 her mother died of TB. The father, unable to care for his children, sent the two brothers to work on farms and the three girls to convent schools. In the school, Gabrielle did learn good manners, grooming and some other useful skills. Apparently the school was also unpleasant and she left school around age 16, entering the workforce in menial jobs.

    There are a number of witty quotes from Coco Chanel, in some of which she more or less said her background was so grim she had to invent a different life story. The name Coco may have come from a song she sang at a cabaret or it might be a French term for a kept woman since Chanel moved ahead in the world by pairing with wealthy men. (Also at that time, actually until 1965 according to some sources, France did not allow women to own their own businesses or have their own bank accounts. I certainly do not blame Coco for doing what she had to in order to have her business.)

    So, she had a rough start, but gained good manners and skills at convent school, entered workforce young, had theatrical ambitions, openly lied about past, was obviously an "artist of no mean degree" so to speak, adopted a nickname, depended on lovers to succeed.

    Coco succeeded. I suggest, in my opinion, MJK had a similar background but she ended up a murder victim. (I can't back up what I think because we still have no idea who was MJK but to me, all the bits and pieces paint this picture in my mind.)

    Leave a comment:


  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Hi, Mark! Yes, Bouquet/Bockee/Buki came from Amsterdam. Debra A., Robert and others did a lot of research on another thread. One of the last findings was that the possible original spelling was something like Bouquet though earlier research had indicated something like Boeku. We kept trying to figure out Boeku in reference to various languages. (The nearest or identical spelling I could find was South African Boer but in the end that does not pertain to Mrs. B. in 1880s London.)

    (All this is why I usually refer to Elisabeth as Mrs. B. and Elizabeth Phoenix/Felix as Mrs. P. I remember all the research but it is far from standardized.)

    I know I saw the name Alexandrine in some of the Verney information. I wouldn't be surprised if women like Eugenie Rouillier--as did Verney--used interchangeable names. We have long sought a connection between the "West End" brothels or whatever and MJK's "plunge" into the East End. Alexandrine Bouche is certainly worth exploring fully.

    San Fran also has great genealogy resources and has regularly added points of connection among various circles of people, most recently the Verney/Rouillier milieu. It will be important to see if Mdme. Boucher can be connected to these other people.

    Another thing I am always looking for is a French-Belgian-Dutch connection. MJK was involved with the Dutch Morgensterns. She was involved with, supposedly, a French madame in the West End. As we see with Eugenie Rouillier--a.k.a. Florent which is Belgian-- and some other cases of decoying girls, Belgium or Holland could be eventual destinations. (Maybe the "part" to which MJK objected was somewhere like Antwerp rather than Paris?)

    Quite awhile ago I found a complaint filed with the city by Louis Bockee with the right address in the right area. That is on a thread of its own under "Mr. Bockee's Complaint".

    Leave a comment:


  • Mark Kent
    replied
    Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
    Hi, Mark! That is still interesting. I saw the name Alexandrine somewhere along the way gathering information on Verney. I can't remember the context. There is no reason last names could not have varied. I have not seen Bouche before in any pertinent research.

    What comes down to us seems to identify Mrs. Buki as Mary's landlady in/near Pennington Street so it is most likely she was Elisabeth Bockee--there are a number of different spellings but this was used in English records--widow of Louis Bockee, common law wife(?) of Johannes Morgenstern with whom she had children.

    Still, minds should be kept open about this Alexandrine Bouche, IMO. If Mary went with or to a Mrs. Bouche to get the box of dresses, the names could have been confused. We need to know more.
    At minimum we need to know how many "French women/ladies" had operations similar to Eugenie Rouillier. Maybe there were a lot of them and if so we will be back to picking MJK out of a crowd.

    Interestingly enough - using the info you just provided above, I also found a Louis Bouquet and Elizabeth Bouquet. They came from Amsterdam.....
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Hi, Mark! That is still interesting. I saw the name Alexandrine somewhere along the way gathering information on Verney. I can't remember the context. There is no reason last names could not have varied. I have not seen Bouche before in any pertinent research.

    What comes down to us seems to identify Mrs. Buki as Mary's landlady in/near Pennington Street so it is most likely she was Elisabeth Bockee--there are a number of different spellings but this was used in English records--widow of Louis Bockee, common law wife(?) of Johannes Morgenstern with whom she had children.

    Still, minds should be kept open about this Alexandrine Bouche, IMO. If Mary went with or to a Mrs. Bouche to get the box of dresses, the names could have been confused. We need to know more.

    At minimum we need to know how many "French women/ladies" had operations similar to Eugenie Rouillier. Maybe there were a lot of them and if so we will be back to picking MJK out of a crowd.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mark Kent
    replied
    Mrs. Bouche - Greek Street Madam of the West End

    Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
    I would love to know more! Sounds like she might warrant her own thread under French ladies, Mary Kelly, Points to Ponder, etc.

    The whole story Gary unearthed about Captain Verney/Wilson and Eugenie Rouillier is so perfect when considering MJK but I have a suspicion there were others, perhaps many others, with similar operations. A great story + wishful thinking does not identify MJK! The more we know, the better.

    Apologies Anna - I called her Mrs. Bouquet but it's Bouche which could be mistaken as Buki.
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Originally posted by Mark Kent View Post
    It really is spelled Bouquet and she was busted for running a house of ill repute in the West End. I am happy to provide more detail a bit later.
    I would love to know more! Sounds like she might warrant her own thread under French ladies, Mary Kelly, Points to Ponder, etc.

    The whole story Gary unearthed about Captain Verney/Wilson and Eugenie Rouillier is so perfect when considering MJK but I have a suspicion there were others, perhaps many others, with similar operations. A great story + wishful thinking does not identify MJK! The more we know, the better.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mark Kent
    replied
    Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
    The value of Mrs. Buki/Bockee is that she lived with Johannes Morgenstern, even had children with him. (Mary lived with Morgenstern. Mrs. Buki was her landlady. Mrs. B. went with Mary to get the box from the French woman.)

    Mrs. Buki who lived with J. Morgenstern can be traced back a number of years in the correct area and streets, through her marriage to Louis Bockee, etc.

    However, if there was a French woman, a real Madame named Bouquet, we definitely should learn more about her. I see no problem with Mary Jane and Elisabeth Bockee going to Mdme. Bouquet to retrieve Mary's box of dresses. By all means, educate us, please!

    (But is Mdme. Bouquet's name was spelled Bucket, we might not have a real French lady.)
    It really is spelled Bouquet and she was busted for running a house of ill repute in the West End. I am happy to provide more detail a bit later.

    Leave a comment:


  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Originally posted by Mark Kent View Post
    Is it canon to accept Mrs. Buki as the one referenced in the articles, or is it possible that it was a question of pronunciation to a reporter, and coincidentally a Mrs. Buki matches a person in a Census? I could suggest another candidate. Why couldn't the French lady actually be a Mrs. Bouquet? She's real and a Madam from the West End who operated there around the time of MJK's timeline.
    The value of Mrs. Buki/Bockee is that she lived with Johannes Morgenstern, even had children with him. (Mary lived with Morgenstern. Mrs. Buki was her landlady. Mrs. B. went with Mary to get the box from the French woman.)

    Mrs. Buki who lived with J. Morgenstern can be traced back a number of years in the correct area and streets, through her marriage to Louis Bockee, etc.

    However, if there was a French woman, a real Madame named Bouquet, we definitely should learn more about her. I see no problem with Mary Jane and Elisabeth Bockee going to Mdme. Bouquet to retrieve Mary's box of dresses. By all means, educate us, please!

    (But is Mdme. Bouquet's name was spelled Bucket, we might not have a real French lady.)

    Leave a comment:


  • Mark Kent
    replied
    Originally posted by San Fran View Post
    I'd agree with you, Wickerman, that ultimately there's no real reason, case-wise, to think there's a mystery or a solution to the mystery with a study of the minutiae of the box, other than maybe the identity of the French Lady and Mary's gentleman.

    Is it canon to accept Mrs. Buki as the one referenced in the articles, or is it possible that it was a question of pronunciation to a reporter, and coincidentally a Mrs. Buki matches a person in a Census? I could suggest another candidate. Why couldn't the French lady actually be a Mrs. Bouquet? She's real, from France, and a Madam from the West End who operated there around the time of MJK's timeline.

    Leave a comment:


  • San Fran
    replied
    Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post
    I just cant see why we should think there is a mystery about the box of clothes. They were in the West End and Mary was in the East End, and she wanted them back.
    I'd agree with you, Wickerman, that ultimately there's no real reason, case-wise, to think there's a mystery or a solution to the mystery with a study of the minutiae of the box, other than maybe the identity of the French Lady and Mary's gentleman.

    Leave a comment:


  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post
    I just cant see why we should think there is a mystery about the box of clothes. They were in the West End and Mary was in the East End, and she wanted them back.

    We don't know if she took the box of clothes with her to France or not. And, if she did, she brought them back to the West End with her and thats where they remained.

    Mary left for the East End and didn't want the box until she established herself somewhere permanent, or for some other reason.

    Maybe she left the box behind because she didn't expect to be following that same higher 'career' in the East End, but now she needed money so thought she could sell or pawn them?
    What set me off on a more complex line of thought was that the only other reference I had found for "box of dresses" concerned dress lodgers. So, MJK prostitute + box of dresses must = dress lodger. Dress lodgers were kept in debt they seldom earned or possessed the dresses.

    So if MJK = dress lodger and she was only connected to the West End gay house a few weeks, how could she claim a box of "costly" dresses?

    As we see in other posts, employers could try to keep a servant's box for many reasons so the French lady must have been a decent sort if she allowed Mary the box, whether it all belonged to Mary or had been earned through the gay house.

    The simpler explanation makes a lot of sense too. We tend to think of Mary as a destitute prostitute but maybe she had had better days and acquired a box of costly dresses.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wicker Man
    replied
    I just cant see why we should think there is a mystery about the box of clothes. They were in the West End and Mary was in the East End, and she wanted them back.

    We don't know if she took the box of clothes with her to France or not. And, if she did, she brought them back to the West End with her and thats where they remained.

    Mary left for the East End and didn't want the box until she established herself somewhere permanent, or for some other reason.

    Maybe she left the box behind because she didn't expect to be following that same higher 'career' in the East End, but now she needed money so thought she could sell or pawn them?

    Leave a comment:


  • San Fran
    replied
    Hereís an article about Detaining A Servantís Box. It could be held back for spite or any number of reasons.

    https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4169763/4169767

    In conjunction with a trip to France, I have to agree that a decoying scenario makes the most sense. I believe in the Verney/Roullier situation, the box was to be detained in London to make it harder for Miss Baskett to run off and make her more dependent.

    Most women resorted to the police to get their box but Mary didnít seem to need the cops. Does that mean it was a criminal act involved like a decoying?
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X