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Was MJK's Family Found in 1888?

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  • Was MJK's Family Found in 1888?

    On other threads we have been discussing whether Mary Jane Kelly actually existed as such, if her whole backstory consisted of lies, etc. We can't find her family and we assume investigators in 1888 could not.

    What IF those investigators never located Mary's family and could not prove anything in her story? Purely for human interest, wouldn't that have been part of the enduring case? Wouldn't writers like Dew and Anderson have made terse statements about MJK having died and been buried under a made-up name, her true history being unknown to the day, her family unaware of her terrible end? I can imagine Dew rhapsodizing about "Marie" being buried under a romantic but probably false name. In modern cases such a failure would become part of the investigation.

    I THINK investigators in 1888 did find her family. If we only had more old case files we would know so much more! Once notified, family had no obligation to talk to the press or announce their presence if they came to the funeral. One report says Barnett and a woman of Mary's class, presumably a friend from the East End, knelt by the grave when the service was read. The woman was not identified in the report other than that. Why could she not have been Mary's sister or aunt?
    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

  • #2
    I don't know how much of this clip will show till I post it. I want to stick it somewhere because I don't remember reading about the wording on the card attached to the floral arrangement. If it clipped right there is mention of Joe B. and another woman kneeling beside the grave during the service.

    If the woman was one of Mary's friends from Dorset Street or thereabouts, which one might she have been? It sounds to me this one woman was taking a spot that would ordinarily be for family.

    [Expletive!] only this part clipped.
    Attached Files
    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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    • #3
      I'll get it one way or another....Clipular easily sends a person back to the original source. I think a different news article described this "poor woman" as being of Mary Jane's class. Who was she if not family?
      Attached Files
      The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

      Comment


      • #4
        I have to agree with what you're saying, Anna. Who else in Mary's circle would mourn her death as much as Joe Barnett? A "relative" makes sense.

        If Mary had relatives in London, wouldn't they be in the West End where she went when she first arrived? Unless she was recruited directly from Cardiff or wherever, she would have likely arrived and naturally gone to stay with relatives.

        Who's to say the "cousin who led her into a bad life" didn't lead her into it in London? Who's to say that wasn't her at the funeral? She'd have more reason to mourn than anyone.

        The only clue we have so far as to MJK's London relatives would be the French Lady from the West End. Identifying might help identify them. Of course, most of these West End French Lady's served the upper classes and Lords so, if the family was somehow associated with her, that might explain why they didn't come forward, why they remained anonymous, with not even a spokesperson like Mrs. Phoenix. Mrs. P definitely didn't talk like she was speaking about a relative.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by San Fran View Post
          I have to agree with what you're saying, Anna. Who else in Mary's circle would mourn her death as much as Joe Barnett? A "relative" makes sense.

          If Mary had relatives in London, wouldn't they be in the West End where she went when she first arrived? Unless she was recruited directly from Cardiff or wherever, she would have likely arrived and naturally gone to stay with relatives.

          Who's to say the "cousin who led her into a bad life" didn't lead her into it in London? Who's to say that wasn't her at the funeral? She'd have more reason to mourn than anyone.

          The only clue we have so far as to MJK's London relatives would be the French Lady from the West End. Identifying might help identify them. Of course, most of these West End French Lady's served the upper classes and Lords so, if the family was somehow associated with her, that might explain why they didn't come forward, why they remained anonymous, with not even a spokesperson like Mrs. Phoenix. Mrs. P definitely didn't talk like she was speaking about a relative.
          Thanks for the input, San Fran. In another article the woman who knelt with Joe is described as being of Mary's class, implying shabby dress or something. Maybe not West End material.

          Another point I find slightly interesting is that they knelt together during the service. It was a Catholic service and I think Joe was Catholic. It seems a little odd that they knelt for the whole--but brief--service but such was reported. Anyway, Mary could have had a close friend who was Catholic, who was the woman. On the other hand, would a protestant kneel by the graveside during a "popish" service and isn't it likely many or most of Mary's friends from the East End would be C of E? It would make more sense that the other chief mourner beside Joe was a relative and fellow Catholic.

          All that is a very small point but it is worth mentioning. Additionally, if a chief mourner at the graveside was someone like Mrs. Prater, it seems she would have gotten attention to the fact afterward, if only for a few free pints from reporters.

          Some reports detail a coach filled with ragged women who went to the cemetery and it was said these were Mary's friends from the neighborhood. Maybe, but I always wondered.
          The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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          • #6
            Yes, she was dressed like Mary’s East End class but even Mary was West End material at one time. She fits in now though so they could gone down the path together.

            I suspect women like Mary leave the West End because she was more likely to be treated like Mabel Grey in the East. Maybe I should say Emma Hamilton as she was nicknames Fair Emma by East Enders.

            As for the relative religious affiliation, witnesses reported first hand that Mary went to the City Mission in Thrawl and to the Salvation Army services. It could have been for the food and song but I don’t think she was strictly Catholic in her upbringing. Intermarriage is commonplace.

            I agree the lady kneeling at the funeral should be considered Catholic for kneeling unless she couldn’t stand up because of guilt. Either way I agree it does suggest a relation like the “cousin”.

            Comment


            • #7
              Do you really think that women of that class, selling themselves for drink, sick, hungry and so on....really give a fig about correct observance of some religious tradition or other? Not that Im convinced that only a catholic would kneel at a catholic funeral.

              If the guy beside you kneels...and you are only two there...most people -buddhist, hindu , protestant, whatever -would kneel just to avoid looking rude or standing out.

              P

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Mr. Poster View Post
                Do you really think that women of that class, selling themselves for drink, sick, hungry and so on....really give a fig about correct observance of some religious tradition or other? Not that Im convinced that only a catholic would kneel at a catholic funeral.

                If the guy beside you kneels...and you are only two there...most people -buddhist, hindu , protestant, whatever -would kneel just to avoid looking rude or standing out.

                P
                Wow!

                And yet they might concoct a detailed fictional biography?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                  Wow!

                  And yet they might concoct a detailed fictional biography?
                  By your logic.....drunks never tell tall tales!

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mr. Poster View Post
                    By your logic.....drunks never tell tall tales!
                    Really?

                    By your logic drunks abandon all their cultural and religious memories?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mr. Poster View Post
                      By your logic.....drunks never tell tall tales!
                      Two Welsh geezers in the pub. First one says, "I went up to my allotment this afternoon to cut my prize cabbage. It's so big that it took me half an hour with a saw to cut it down and, when I did, two sheep jumped out from in between the leaves and ran away down the lane."

                      Second one says, "We've got a massive job on at the steelworks; there's already ten of us working on it, and we've got extra shift-workers coming in tomorrow. I made a start on the riveting today, and so did Dai, but we were standing so far apart that neither of us could hear the other one banging the rivets in."

                      "Sounds impressive. What are you doing?" - "Making a saucepan for your f*king cabbage"
                      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                      "Suche Nullen"
                      (F. Nietzsche)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                        Two Welsh geezers in the pub. First one says, "I went up to my allotment this afternoon to cut my prize cabbage. It's so big that it took me half an hour with a saw to cut it down and, when I did, two cats jumped out from where they'd been hiding between the leaves and ran away down the lane."

                        Second one says, "We've got a massive job on at the steelworks; there's already ten of us working on it, and we've got extra shift-workers coming in tomorrow. I made a start on the riveting today, and so did Dai, but we were standing so far apart that neither of us could hear the other one banging the rivets in."

                        First one, "Sounds impressive. What are you doing?"

                        "Making a saucepan for your f*king cabbage"
                        Nice one, Gareth.

                        But of course, people in the LVP were so much simpler, weren't they? They either told the whole truth etc. or they were lying criminal scumbags like John McCarthy ...?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mr. Poster View Post
                          Do you really think that women of that class, selling themselves for drink, sick, hungry and so on....really give a fig about correct observance of some religious tradition or other? ...

                          P
                          That's why I think she might have been kneeling while overcome with grief if not guilt. I'm thinking of the "cousin" who led her into the life that led to her death. The City Missionary said she had a friend there that he rescued.

                          Barnett or Millers Court friends didn't know her so this rescue likely couldn't have been during his time with Mary. Sarah Lewis has been IDed as the Sarah Lewis who was rescued by the City Missionary but Sarah Lewis said she didn't know Mary so she can't be the friend.

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