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Elizabeth Stride's Last Activities

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  • Elizabeth Stride's Last Activities

    On a case by case basis I have long pondered whether all of the C-5 were engaging in prostitution at the times they were killed. My original reason for these ponderings was to see if other circumstances put them in the path of JtR and if those circumstances could identify Jack. Mary Kelly was probably selling herself on her last night/morning. Annie, Polly and Kate, maybe.

    Despite testimony that Liz Stride was seen walking with men, I have thought and still do believe she was not working as a prostitute in the hours before her death. A general point I have made about all five cases is that no money was found with any of the victims and what prostitute goes away with a client without getting money up front? (Except farthings or no farthings with Annie? What's the latest consensus?)

    With Annie, Polly, Kate and Mary we could theorise that the killer took back what he may have paid them and, especially in the case of Mary, had time and opportunity to rob her of any other earnings from clients earlier in the night/morning.

    Not so with Liz. Everything points to her being killed suddenly and the killer leaving immediately. There is no sign the killer rummaged through her garments or pockets. The only possible item I can think of that MIGHT have been a payment by a client was the packet of cachous in her hand. If it was pressed just right into her palm she might not have been able to instantly tell it was not a coin. (There is a neuro-psycological factor that makes this possible.)

    Even so, she was seen with men earlier in the evening, even strolling with a man or two. If she was prostituting she surely would have earned a few coins. We have no reports that she was seen in any pubs or other places where she could have spent earnings. Reports seem to center Liz near Dutfield's Yard and not inside places where money could be spent. She had apparently had dinner earlier. She may or may not have needed to earn money for a bed for the night.

    I have other reasons to think Liz was not actually prostituting herself on that last night but keeping with the fact of no money found on her person and no evidence the killer even attempted to rob her, what can we learn?
    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

  • #2
    It has to be taken into account that it rained much of that evening before she was seen on Berner St. Garner and Best reportedly saw her outside a pub with a man during the rain.
    Best Wishes,
    Cris Malone
    ______________________________________________
    "Objectivity comes from how the evidence is treated, not the nature of the evidence itself. Historians can be just as objective as any scientist."

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Cris Malone View Post
      It has to be taken into account that it rained much of that evening before she was seen on Berner St. Garner and Best reportedly saw her outside a pub with a man during the rain.
      So, if she had earned a little bit, she may have spent it there?
      The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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      • #4
        Maybe another thing to ponder here is if Liz, who was seen with men in those final few hours, was not going all the way, so to speak, with those men.

        Was she allowing something less than the standard acts of prostitution and was she compensated with non-monetary items?

        She died with a packet of cachous clutched in her hand. She had a red flower pinned to her coat, alternately described as a red geranium or red rose with maidenhair fern. Though postmortem exam proved Liz had not eaten any grapes, a new(?) silk(?) handkerchief was found in her possession which had fruit stains. Much earlier in the evening she had had a meal, apparently in company of men.

        Liz was overheard telling a man, "Not tonight, some other night." We do not know what that really meant but it could have meant she was not working as a prostitute on that night.

        If basic sexual acts were not performed, what might have happened between Liz and men she was seen with? I once suggested she may have been interviewing for a replacement for her boyfriend Michael Kidney. If it was something else, what sort of interaction might have resulted in token gifts like candy, flower or handkerchief?
        The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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        • #5
          It has been speculated that she may have bought those items herself from earlier earnings to make her more appealing, similar to Polly's "jolly bonnet."

          The police --especially Swanson-- were convinced she was soliciting at the time. Even Schwartz's testimony was considered with the possibility that another man could have come along after the encounter with so-called broad shouldered man. They were actually good at tracing a victim's history since the murderer usually knew them. They could have been wrong but I doubt it.
          Best Wishes,
          Cris Malone
          ______________________________________________
          "Objectivity comes from how the evidence is treated, not the nature of the evidence itself. Historians can be just as objective as any scientist."

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Cris Malone View Post
            It has been speculated that she may have bought those items herself from earlier earnings to make her more appealing, similar to Polly's "jolly bonnet."

            The police at the time --especially Swanson-- were convinced she was soliciting at the time. Even Schwartz's testimony was considered with the possibility that another man could have come along after the encounter with so-called broad shouldered man. They could have been wrong but I doubt it.
            OK. If the flower was a geranium it could have been snatched from a window box. Or someone could have dropped a rose in the street or a flower seller could have discarded a shopworn flower or even given it to a friend, perhaps Liz. A silk handkerchief was worth money if pawned so could have been a payment of sorts. Maybe she bought the cachous or perhaps as I have suggested the packet was pressed into her palm in such a way she could not instantly tell it was not a coin.

            Liz had earned a few pennies working that day. Maybe she was offering fewer favors on that last evening. Modern prostitutes receive less money for certain acts compared to more complete acts. Mary Kelly may have offered six pence worth of services. Maybe on Liz' last night she offered services worth a silk handkerchief.

            (It has been noted before that new or nearly new handkerchiefs were found with more than one of the C-5. It has also been pondered whether handkerchiefs might have been a form of payment. Somewhere along the line I have read that a handkerchief might have been worth around 1/2d. to 3d. if pawned.)
            The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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            • #7
              I think it's always important to remember that some women, just like men, go out to have a good time, with whatever that may entail.

              No proof, but that's how I've always imagined Mrs Stride's situation that night.
              Thanks for your time,
              dusty miller

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Dusty Miller View Post
                I think it's always important to remember that some women, just like men, go out to have a good time, with whatever that may entail.

                No proof, but that's how I've always imagined Mrs Stride's situation that night.
                Someone on some forum somewhere suggested Liz was loitering at Dutfield's Yard to listen to music from inside. After the meeting it was said they were playing music and singing. I like this idea and always keep it in my mind.

                I have also felt that since Liz had earned some money during the day, she may well have been out for a pleasant evening.

                But then, as has been said below, investigators thought she was soliciting on that night. But if so, what about earnings, which is what I have been pondering? It also seemed like she was turning away some offers and I still think she may have rejected the killer and the rejection spurred rage. (In that scenario of mine, BS Man was the killer, etc.)

                Another way to look at it is maybe Elizabeth was well known in the area and on a night of friendly socializing she interacted with a number of people she knew.

                I think the total picture could be some of both.
                The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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                • #9
                  Berner Street would have been one route for her to go to the Swedish area at Wellclose and Prince's Squares.



                  According to a newspaper report, she had a friend in the area that she visited. And, of course, she and Kidney had lived a few streets over.
                  Thanks for your time,
                  dusty miller

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Dusty Miller View Post
                    Berner Street would have been one route for her to go to the Swedish area at Wellclose and Price's Squares.



                    According to a newspaper report, she had a friend in the area that she visited. And, of course, she and Kidney had lived a few streets over.
                    Thank you. I always need lots of refreshers on the streets. I understand the basic layout but can never think of possibilities based on the geography.
                    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
                      Thank you. I always need lots of refreshers on the streets. I understand the basic layout but can never think of possibilities based on the geography.
                      Anna,

                      Close your eyes and listen carefully - you may hear the tap, tap, tap, of a blind man’s stick.

                      Gary

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                      • #12
                        .Thank you. I always need lots of refreshers on the streets.


                        So did Stride (English joke).

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                        • #13
                          Liz’s pal, the woman who cleaned prostitute’s rooms, lived nearby (in what had been Tiger Bay from memory). The greatest concentration of prostitutes with their own rooms nearby was probably on either side of the western end of the Highway in Ship Alley, Betts Street, Pennington Street etc.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
                            .Thank you. I always need lots of refreshers on the streets.


                            So did Stride (English joke).
                            Once again, I cachou.

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                            • #15
                              We all fall down.

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