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5 Questions with JMENGES

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  • 5 Questions with JMENGES

    The Mengster's response to his 5 questions were"

    1. Which area of the Case are you currently more interested in?
    Suspect...aspect...speculation...or evidentiary ( including newspapers
    and other accounts within the Case ) ?

    At the moment I'm most interested in the primary source documents and
    contemporary newspaper reporting on the case and documents (newspapers
    and otherwise) tangential to the murders but giving a picture of life
    in LVP. For an example of the later, I'm on a current kick about
    sporting activities, particularly boxing, which had a colorful history
    and was covered in the press by some great, but mostly forgotten,
    writers in the 19th century.

    2. What is your current position on Tabram as a bona fide Ripper
    victim....and why or why not?

    My position on Tabram seems to change with the weather. At the moment
    I do not believe she was a victim of the same killer as Nichols, and
    so not murdered by what I consider to be the C3. My problem is the
    anger that is evident in her attack based on the number of wounds
    points more to a killer whom she offended in some way, which is not in
    line with the type of encounter followed by attack which I believe
    happened in the other 3 cases which I believe were committed by the
    same person ie Nichols, Chapman & Eddowes.

    That being said, I do find the timing, brutality and location pretty
    ironic and coincidental which sometimes leads me to consider her as a
    potential victim. So I could be said to be somewhat on the fence.

    3. Is there a "test" or scenario recreation ( like the ones Gavin
    Bromley has done ) that you would like to see conducted in the future?

    The production of a 3-D interactive walkthrough of all the murders,
    with accurate timing and witnesses in place, with the outstanding
    attention to texture and detail evident in Jake's work, would be
    something that I would really be interested in seeing. Maybe one day
    this old idea will be accomplished.

    4. What does your significant other and/or friends think about your
    interest in the WM and LVP ?

    My wife finds it interesting, supports my book buying and trips to the
    historical society, but also believes that on occasion it take up too
    much of my time. While some of my friends think I'm slightly bizarre
    with a weird interest, others (particularly my male art and writer
    friends) are used to hanging out with people with what some would
    classify as a morbid interest, but at the same time appreciate and in
    some cases share my interest in Victoriana and so are encouraging, as
    I also share with my friends my writing and throw ideas off of them.
    But they probably view me as crazy, too.

    5. Which or what specific event or element within the Case would
    you like to "solve" once and for all...excluding the identification of
    the Ripper ?

    I would like as much Tumblety related material that exists to see the
    light of day. Whether that be new photographs, press accounts or
    mentions anywhere. This is not because I identify him with JtR pre se,
    but because he is to me, with all we do know, still one of the most
    interesting and mysterious figures of the American 19th century.
    To Join JTR Forums :
    Contact [email protected]

  • #2
    Thanks How,

    I thought I could use a little more attention today



    • #3
      My pleasure,senor...

      You always get attention round these here parts,pardner !

      Thanks for sharing your views with everyone.

      To Join JTR Forums :
      Contact [email protected]


      • #4
        Hi JM
        I'm on a current kick about
        sporting activities, particularly boxing, which had a colorful history
        and was covered in the press by some great, but mostly forgotten,
        writers in the 19th century.
        I bet this is a really interesting subject to look at. I briefly dallied in the past, mainly because of the history and tradition of it in the Whitechapel and the East End and it's connection to a few of the local pubs that we all know of.
        Working class LVP boxers seemed to have had a bit of a thing for outrageous bling and astrakhan too!
        Anyway, if you ever come across an amateur LVP boxer (once at Spitalfields Amateur Club) named A. Vanderhout (Abraham?) on your travels I'd love to hear about him.



        • #5
          Thanks Deb,

          19th century British Boxing really is an interesting subject. I'm currently reading a book (possibly for a future review on the forums) on the murder of William Weare by the boxing promoter John Thurtell. You may be familiar with this case since it was a big press event in the early 1800's.

          What do you know about your Vanderhout? All I could find quickly by searching online was that he was a lightweight champion 2 years in a row 1896-1897 in the ABA Nationals and a finalist in 1899, fighting for the Lynn/Sydney ABC. Anything you would like to add? What interests you in this particular fighter?

          There was at least one Vanderhout/Banderhout active in the Socialist Labour movement in the East End 1870's-80's, but his initials seem to be either T or J.S. maybe two different people sharing the same last name. Not an A. Vanderhout, the late 1890's boxer.



          • #6
            Thanks JM

            The socialist you mention was named Isaac Solomon Vanderhout, He was a member of the Tower Hamlets radicals club the J initial he is sometimes given is probably a mistake.
            I am interested in the family in general as Isaac Vanderhout was most likely the Mr. Vanderhout named as being present at the MJK inquest (the name is quite rare). He had a son named Abraham (But I still haven't been able to determine if the boxer was named Abraham) The family had lived at Miller's Court, Hanbury Street and White's Row at various times.
            I came across a letter written by Vanderhout from Hanbury Street mentioning that his son was up in the central criminal court on a charge of robbery with violence but I've nver been able to get any further with that.

            It's more a curiosity about the family in general more than anything, with McCarthy having an alleged interest in boxing, and the link to Miller's Court as a previous address and the MJK inquest.

            Thanks anyway....sorry to be mucking up your 5 questions thread here!
            I've not heard of the case you cited from the 1800's but I'll look forward to reading your review of the book in the future.



            • #7

              Don't worry about cluttering this thread, it's what it's here for!

              Forgive me if you've seen this...

              Here's a bit of genealogy, poorly translated from this Dutch website


              Issac Solomon Vanderhout

              b. Amsterdam 25 September 1843
              d. London 15 March 1918

              son of Solomon Issac and Catharina Joseph (nee) Hoepelman

              married Sara Harpman 19 December 1866

              3 sons (not named in this article)

              He seemed to have been very active in trade unions in Amsterdam and in London. Much history is given in this piece. He moved to London in 1874. To the East End, where he, for the next 25 years, was active on the local political level. Some of the titles of his speeches are given, as well as mass meetings he attended.

              Died in the Whitechapel hospital from a malicious disorder of the mouth.



              • #8
                From the sporting reports, Vanderhout was rather an unscientific brawler.

                If he is the Abraham Vanderhout, market porter, living Whites Row, then there may be a photo of him - or at least, of his stall!

                Catalogue Ref. CLSPIA/013
                Spitalfields Market Committee, City of London
                Central Markets Committee, City of London
                Corporation of London

                [Access Conditions]


                Photographs - ref. CLA/013/AD/04


                FILE - Members of staff standing outside the stall of A. Vanderhout, Salesman - ref. CLA/013/AD/04/01/006 - date: n.d. [pre. 1920]


                • #9
                  Just in case some folks didn't know the name is technically spelt Van der Hout 'of the wood'. Using this construction may aid in a text search.

                  edit- which in an index list of last names (if done correctly) would read: Hout, van der



                  • #10
                    Thanks JM
                    I had seen the website (and the poor google translation) before.
                    I previously posted some information to the Albert Bachert thread as Vanderhout's political activities at Dod street and Trafalgar square involved the Tailors' union representative Lewis Lyons as well as Albert Bachert (in opposition to the socialists) Bachert and Lyons had a couple of run ins.

                    Thanks too Robert
                    That is the man, the family did live on White's Row also.


                    Thanks for the Van der Hout heads up! That may help in searches


                    • #11
                      Debs, may have spoken too soon - a 1915 directory lists Arthur Vanderhout, fruit salesman, Spitalfields market.


                      • #12
                        Odd one that Robert.
                        Abraham is listed at White's Row in 1891 and 1901 with his parents still, and his occupation is market porter. Perhaps Arthur was a relative who arrived later, he's a no show on any census anyway, even using Van*

                        Now I think I'll really have to get outta your thread JM! It's getting way off track and might put people off reading your 5 questions answers and responding....Thanks for putting up with a squatter for a while.



                        • #13
                          And I will wheel my fruit barrow away too.


                          • #14
                            Don't worry about it! I enjoy this type of stuff. It's much more useful and constructive than reading my answers!

                            If you do choose to abandon this thread (where it will surely wither and die) then please start a new one on this guy.



                            • #15
                              And Debs,

                              If you do start a thread on finding Vanderhout, please illustrate (for me) your source that he was at the MJK inquest. He's not indexed in the Ultimate, nor does a Casebook search turn up anything.

                              And what, after that, leads you to believe he is the Socialist "leader" Vanderhout at the inquest? Maybe that will be obvious once you've enlightened me with a source.