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  • Question about Tickets of Leave

    Hi all

    Does anyone know the general restrictions on Tickets of Leave? Specifically, could a person leave on a ship to another country? I found one site that indicated boarding a ship was always prohibited.

    Anyone know specifics on this?

    Thanks!

  • #2
    You cannot leave the country if on a Ticket-of-leave.

    I have no list if restrictions, but ticket-of-leave men are still prisoners of Her Majesty. They are not free to roam where ever they please.
    They must also check in regularly with the local police.

    The T.o.L. can be viewed as a form of early release, similar to being out on bail in today's legal system. Not exactly the same because the T.o.L. subject is still a prisoner.

    Prisoners granted a T.o.L. were usually for lesser crimes, which did include assault or robbery (muggings), but not serious crimes like murder.
    Regards, Jon S.
    "
    The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
    " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
    Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

    Comment


    • #3
      If you have the British Newspaper Archive, you can search "ticket of leave", and can obtain some clues to the application of the ticket.
      Many of what we read concern prisoners transported to the colonies; Gibraltar, Bermuda, New South Wales & Van Dieman's Land.

      - Ticket of Leave was preferred by the state, as opposed to a conditional pardon, because under a T.o.L. the state retains control of the individual for the duration of the ticket. Whereas under a conditional pardon, the state looses control of the individual.

      - A person granted a T.o.L. is restricted to the County where they are placed, and must report to local authorities at frequent stated intervals.

      - The duration of a T.o.L. in months or years will depend on the sentence imposed on the prisoner.

      - T.o.L. men when obtaining work for their own account, may be required to pay the Government 15' (shillings?) as a fee out of their wages.


      [Note: it is well to mention that transportation to the colonies will involve the prisoner going on board a ship (re, your first question), but the Ticket of Leave is only granted once they arrive at the colony.]
      Regards, Jon S.
      "
      The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
      " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
      Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post
        [Note: it is well to mention that transportation to the colonies will involve the prisoner going on board a ship (re, your first question), but the Ticket of Leave is only granted once they arrive at the colony.]
        So if a man had a Ticket of Leave in his possession in England and headed for a colony after some time, would he be issued another ticket of leave in the destination colony or would he be in violation for leaving in the first place?

        Hope I'm not confusing you.

        Comment


        • #5
          Here's a sample of extracts concerning Ticket of Leave prisoners.








          Regards, Jon S.
          "
          The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
          " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
          Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
            So if a man had a Ticket of Leave in his possession in England and headed for a colony after some time, would he be issued another ticket of leave in the destination colony or would he be in violation for leaving in the first place?

            Hope I'm not confusing you.

            Hi Jerry.

            We need to think of this from the point of view of the police.
            The Ticket of Leave is a document, with an expiry date, and a county where this prisoner is to reside for the duration of the Ticket.

            If the prisoner wants to leave the country he will need to hand in his Ticket in exchange for a new one. His request may not be granted, but simply told he can leave the country when the present ticket expires, as he will be free to do what ever he likes.

            If his request is granted he will need to return into custody to be shipped to the colony as a prisoner. Once he arrives a new Ticket of Leave will be issued with the same kind of restrictions for the remainder of the duration of his original ticket.
            Regards, Jon S.
            "
            The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
            " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
            Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post
              Hi Jerry.

              We need to think of this from the point of view of the police.
              The Ticket of Leave is a document, with an expiry date, and a county where this prisoner is to reside for the duration of the Ticket.

              If the prisoner wants to leave the country he will need to hand in his Ticket in exchange for a new one. His request may not be granted, but simply told he can leave the country when the present ticket expires, as he will be free to do what ever he likes.

              If his request is granted he will need to return into custody to be shipped to the colony as a prisoner. Once he arrives a new Ticket of Leave will be issued with the same kind of restrictions for the remainder of the duration of his original ticket.

              The question was asked to try to understand why William.W. Brodie, a 2 week old Ticket of Leave man, was able to leave England for South Africa as a 3rd Class passenger.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
                The question was asked to try to understand why William.W. Brodie, a 2 week old Ticket of Leave man, was able to leave England for South Africa as a 3rd Class passenger.
                It would appear from stated restrictions that he was not allowed to leave under the law.
                The police did lose track of some T.o.L. prisoners from time to time.

                Actually, I wasn't aware Brodie did go to South Africa, is this "Deacon" Brodie?
                Are you quite satisfied that such a trip to S. Africa did in fact take place while he was in possession of a Ticket of Leave?
                Regards, Jon S.
                "
                The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi Jerry.

                  Now I see which Brodie you are talking about.

                  So you wrote that Brodie informed the authorities that he intended to leave for the Cape of Good Hope while he was still on a Ticket of Leave?
                  http://www.jtrforums.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=162

                  This would contradict the intent of a Ticket of Leave.
                  Regards, Jon S.
                  "
                  The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                  " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                  Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post
                    Hi Jerry.

                    Now I see which Brodie you are talking about.

                    So you wrote that Brodie informed the authorities that he intended to leave for the Cape of Good Hope while he was still on a Ticket of Leave?
                    http://www.jtrforums.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=162

                    This would contradict the intent of a Ticket of Leave.
                    Jon.

                    It was reported by Inspector Thomas Haines in a MEPO report that Brodie was released on license August 22, 1888 and reported his residence at 2 Harveys Buildings and intention to leave for South Africa. Nothing more was heard of him until July 16, 1889 when he reported again to the office citing his intentions to again reside at 2 Harveys Buildings.

                    Lic: Holder Register No. D517 Office No. 35944 Name William Broder [?]

                    * see Ultimate Sourcebook

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Ok thanks.

                      So, the British had a colony at the Cape of Good Hope, known as the Cape Colony where prisoners could be transported.

                      Although Brodie was released 4 years? early, we have no indication what the length of his Ticket of Leave was?
                      If he was to serve his remaining T.o.L. time at the Cape Colony then that would fit what facts we have on record perhaps?

                      Do we know if his T.o.L. was still active the date he arrived back from the Cape in July of 1889? Or, was this roughly the end of his sentence?
                      Regards, Jon S.
                      "
                      The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                      " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                      Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post
                        Ok thanks.

                        So, the British had a colony at the Cape of Good Hope, known as the Cape Colony where prisoners could be transported.

                        Although Brodie was released 4 years? early, we have no indication what the length of his Ticket of Leave was?
                        If he was to serve his remaining T.o.L. time at the Cape Colony then that would fit what facts we have on record perhaps?

                        Do we know if his T.o.L. was still active the date he arrived back from the Cape in July of 1889? Or, was this roughly the end of his sentence?
                        Still active. He confessed to the Alice McKenzie murder,questioned and released. He was re-arrested on July 29th for obtaining a watch on false pretenses. The property of Peter Wrigley Pratt (info from Debs on the other thread you linked).He was remanded twice from then until his trial on September 11th, 1889. The first day of the inquest on the Pinchin torso case. A fellow lodger at 2 Harveys Buildings was making news for that one. John Arnold.

                        His license was then revoked and he served the remainder of his sentence and died in 1892 shortly after his release from prison

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          According to a Kimberly newspaper, he confessed to 9 murders in Whitechapel before returning to Whitechapel on July 16, 1889. IIRC from that news clip he didnít seem to have been with other prisoners. He wandered freely. He worked at the Sultfontein mine.

                          When n police custody in July of 1889 they knew he was a ticket of leave man yet they released him without violating his probation for leaving the country. Instead they arrested him later on another charge.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Ok thankyou.

                            So returning to your original question.
                            I assumed you were thinking Brodie obtained a T.o.L. for London on his release from Portland Gaol on Aug. 22.
                            He then just decided to go to South Africa?

                            Do you know how often the Union Steamship Co. sailed for Cape Town?
                            I'm assuming because Brodie was still a prisoner, the cost of a ticket for the Cape colony was paid for by the Govmt, and as such they may have had a contract with one specific shipping line.

                            I suspect, on his release from Portland Gaol he obtained a T.o.L. for the Cape Colony. The 14 days (Aug 22 - Sept 6) was just waiting for the ship to Cape Town.

                            So he was never actually issued with a T.o.L. for London at all.
                            It wasn't a case of him deciding to go abroad, it was an agreement with the authorities all along.
                            Regards, Jon S.
                            "
                            The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                            " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                            Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Wicker Man View Post
                              Ok thankyou.

                              So returning to your original question.
                              I assumed you were thinking Brodie obtained a T.o.L. for London on his release from Portland Gaol on Aug. 22.
                              He then just decided to go to South Africa?

                              Do you know how often the Union Steamship Co. sailed for Cape Town?
                              I'm assuming because Brodie was still a prisoner, the cost of a ticket for the Cape colony was paid for by the Govmt, and as such they may have had a contract with one specific shipping line.

                              I suspect, on his release from Portland Gaol he obtained a T.o.L. for the Cape Colony. The 14 days (Aug 22 - Sept 6) was just waiting for the ship to Cape Town.

                              So he was never actually issued with a T.o.L. for London at all.
                              It wasn't a case of him deciding to go abroad, it was an agreement with the authorities all along.
                              Possibly, Jon.

                              Any way to find out the office number on his license? 35.944

                              Comment

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