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  • #31
    I’ve had a very prompt reply from the BNA about the high res image. Not good news, I’m afraid:

    Good afternoon Gary,

    Thanks for your email and thank you for using The British Newspaper Archive on Findmypast.

    The British Newspaper Archive is made possible thanks to a partnership between the British Library and Findmypast with the aim to digitise newspaper pages from the British Library's vast collection and bring them online to our website.

    We can provide high-resolution copies of newspaper images from The British Newspaper Archive for an Acquisition Fee of £30 plus VAT per image. Please note that high-resolution means just that, and the image supplied with be of the same quality as the images on The British Newspaper Archive with regards to light levels and imperfections, so the image will not look any clearer and will still be as dark. This is because we digitised the newspaper from aged microfilm. Let me know if this is something you are still interested in.

    Thanks again for getting in touch, and let me know how I can be of any further assistance.
    With very best regards,

    Eddie Bundy


    Comment


    • #32
      Never a mention anywhere of his knowing Mary Kelly...

      The argument is no longer -- was the boxing promoter the one at Abberline's 1892 retirement, but was he the rent collector who knew Mary Kelly? And where was his son, Steve living?

      Comment


      • #33
        Although he was born in France ca 1847 and spent time in Hertfordshire ca 1848, it seems that McCarthy was living in the East End shortly afterwards. His brother Jeremiah was born in Ratcliffe in 1852 and his sister Mary Ann was born there in 1855. As far as I know, it’s not until 1858 that there is any record of the family being in Southwark.

        Does anyone know where Jack and Elizabeth were living in Shadwell/St Georges when their daughter Margaret was born in 1876?

        Edit: Simon Wood has already provided me with that information. Margaret was born in Johnson Street.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
          Although he was born in France ca 1847 and spent time in Hertfordshire ca 1848, it seems that McCarthy was living in the East End shortly afterwards. His brother Jeremiah was born in Ratcliffe in 1852 and his sister Mary Ann was born there in 1855. As far as I know, it’s not until 1858 that there is any record of the family being in Southwark.

          Does anyone know where Jack and Elizabeth were living in Shadwell/St Georges when their daughter Margaret was born in 1876?
          The reference to Jack being involved in boxing events in a railway arch in Shadwell make me wonder whether he had at one time lived in Station Place or Cornwall Street. Wouldn’t that be interesting?

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

            The reference to Jack being involved in boxing events in a railway arch in Shadwell make me wonder whether he had at one time lived in Station Place or Cornwall Street. Wouldn’t that be interesting?

            Edit: Simon Wood has already sent me this info - Margaret was born in Johnson Street a few streets to the east of Station Place.
            Interestingly that’s the Johnson Street that ran between Cable Street and The Commercial Road - where the gasworks was.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
              Never a mention anywhere of his knowing Mary Kelly...

              The argument is no longer -- was the boxing promoter the one at Abberline's 1892 retirement, but was he the rent collector who knew Mary Kelly? And where was his son, Steve living?
              Hi Scott. Here's the reasoning behind it.

              The reason people think it's the same John McCarthy because "Steve," the future music hall artist, is listed in 1881 at 27 Dorset Street, as John (James) McCarthy, age 7.

              In 1901 he is now using the name 'Steve' while (somewhat strangely) running a cab stable in Leeds.

              We know this 1901 Steve McCarthy is John James McCarthy because his wife is Marie and his housekeeper is Florence Durieu, born near Leyton in 1884.

              The same housekeeper, Florence May Durieu, is still listed as his housekeeper in 1911, when he and Marie Kendall, music hall artists, are back in London.

              Interestingly, Florence May Durieu also married a music hall artist, and is said to be McCarthy's cousin.

              I haven't been able to confirm this. Her father was a house decorator in Bethnal Green for many years and her mother's maiden name was Harrison.

              So, if this information is correct, the McCarthys were related to either the Durieu or Harrison families.

              I sure hope it's not Harrison of horse slaughtering fame.

              Click image for larger version  Name:	Steve McCarthy 1901.JPG Views:	0 Size:	60.1 KB ID:	581209

              And here they are in 1911:

              Click image for larger version  Name:	Durieu 1911.JPG Views:	0 Size:	105.5 KB ID:	581210

              Comment


              • #37
                Florence May Durieu is listed as born in Leyton in the 1901 census, and in Walthamstow in 1911, but it's the same place.

                Her later husband was the forgotten musical artist William Charles Rennie.

                He was featured in at least one film in the 1940s under the name "Billy DeHaven." (See below)

                I was never able to figure out her supposed connection to McCarthy; maybe the census was wrong and she was related to Kendall. Anyway, here he is:


                Click image for larger version

Name:	De Haven.JPG
Views:	88
Size:	84.4 KB
ID:	581214

                Comment


                • #38
                  So here's my question.

                  If "Steve" is John James McCarthy, was his full name John James Stephens McCarthy, and he was named after the famous Irish leader of the 19th Century, James Stephens, head of the Irish Republican Brotherhood?

                  There's a Daniel McCarthy, right age to be McCarthy's father, who was arrested and sent to prison in Cork in the 1840s for openly carrying a pike.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post

                    Hi Scott. Here's the reasoning behind it.

                    The reason people think it's the same John McCarthy because "Steve," the future music hall artist, is listed in 1881 at 27 Dorset Street, as John (James) McCarthy, age 7.

                    In 1901 he is now using the name 'Steve' while (somewhat strangely) running a cab stable in Leeds.

                    We know this 1901 Steve McCarthy is John James McCarthy because his wife is Marie and his housekeeper is Florence Durieu, born near Leyton in 1884.

                    The same housekeeper, Florence May Durieu, is still listed as his housekeeper in 1911, when he and Marie Kendall, music hall artists, are back in London.

                    Interestingly, Florence May Durieu also married a music hall artist, and is said to be McCarthy's cousin.

                    I haven't been able to confirm this. Her father was a house decorator in Bethnal Green for many years and her mother's maiden name was Harrison.

                    So, if this information is correct, the McCarthys were related to either the Durieu or Harrison families.

                    I sure hope it's not Harrison of horse slaughtering fame.

                    Click image for larger version Name:	Steve McCarthy 1901.JPG Views:	0 Size:	60.1 KB ID:	581209

                    And here they are in 1911:

                    Click image for larger version Name:	Durieu 1911.JPG Views:	0 Size:	105.5 KB ID:	581210
                    There was a French-born JM living at 27, Dorset Street in 1881, 1891 and 1901. Surely that’s the same man. His occupations were: General Dealer, Grocer and lodging house keeper.





                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post
                      So here's my question.

                      If "Steve" is John James McCarthy, was his full name John James Stephens McCarthy, and he was named after the famous Irish leader of the 19th Century, James Stephens, head of the Irish Republican Brotherhood?

                      There's a Daniel McCarthy, right age to be McCarthy's father, who was arrested and sent to prison in Cork in the 1840s for openly carrying a pike.
                      That’s interesting, RJ. When in the 1840’s?

                      Who knows how Steve acquired his nickname? It often happens when a son is given his father’s forename that he is called something else. ‘Steve’ was illegitimate, his mother’s maiden name was Stevens… who knows?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

                        There was a French-born JM living at 27, Dorset Street in 1881, 1891 and 1901. Surely that’s the same man. His occupations were: General Dealer, Grocer and lodging house keeper.
                        I don't think Scott is disputing that part of it.

                        What seems to prove that this is also the boxing promoter and father-in-law of Kendall is that his son John can be shown to be 'Steve,' the music hall performer.

                        Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                        Who knows how Steve acquired his nickname? It often happens when a son is given his father’s forename that he is called something else. ‘Steve’ was illegitimate, his mother’s maiden name was Stevens… who knows?
                        It was just a throwaway suggestion. It's also extremely common for Irish Catholics to have two or three middle names and use one of those as a pet name if he shares his father's name. It could be Steve from Stevens, or it could be John James Stephens. I'm just wondering if it states his full name anywhere.

                        There were at least two Daniel McCarthys who were hell-raisers near Cork at the time of the Famine and afterwards, but it's unlikely that either is John McCarthy's father, as the arrest of the man carrying a pike occurred in 1849, which would seemingly clash with John McCarthy being born in France.

                        This is probably nothing, but there's a Joseph O. Kelly, or a Joseph O'Kelly living at 28-29 Dorset Street in 1881, born Nenagh, which is about 25 miles from Limerick. Hardly earthshattering, since it's a doss house.


                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post

                          I don't think Scott is disputing that part of it.

                          What seems to prove that this is also the boxing promoter and father-in-law of Kendall is that his son John can be shown to be 'Steve,' the music hall performer.



                          It was just a throwaway suggestion. It's also extremely common for Irish Catholics to have two or three middle names and use one of those as a pet name if he shares his father's name. It could be Steve from Stevens, or it could be John James Stephens. I'm just wondering if it states his full name anywhere.

                          There were at least two Daniel McCarthys who were hell-raisers near Cork at the time of the Famine and afterwards, but it's unlikely that either is John McCarthy's father, as the arrest of the man carrying a pike occurred in 1849, which would seemingly clash with John McCarthy being born in France.

                          This is probably nothing, but there's a Joseph O. Kelly, or a Joseph O'Kelly living at 28-29 Dorset Street in 1881, born Nenagh, which is about 25 miles from Limerick. Hardly earthshattering, since it's a doss house.

                          Jack’s parents were married in London in 1846. I believe John was born in France in 1847. His brother, Dennis, was born in Hertfordshire in 1849.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                            I’ve had a very prompt reply from the BNA about the high res image. Not good news, I’m afraid:

                            Good afternoon Gary,

                            Thanks for your email and thank you for using The British Newspaper Archive on Findmypast.

                            The British Newspaper Archive is made possible thanks to a partnership between the British Library and Findmypast with the aim to digitise newspaper pages from the British Library's vast collection and bring them online to our website.

                            We can provide high-resolution copies of newspaper images from The British Newspaper Archive for an Acquisition Fee of £30 plus VAT per image. Please note that high-resolution means just that, and the image supplied with be of the same quality as the images on The British Newspaper Archive with regards to light levels and imperfections, so the image will not look any clearer and will still be as dark. This is because we digitised the newspaper from aged microfilm. Let me know if this is something you are still interested in.

                            Thanks again for getting in touch, and let me know how I can be of any further assistance.
                            With very best regards,

                            Eddie Bundy

                            The BNA may have been the wrong people to ask. I'll e-mail the British Library and see if they will scan the original. It will probably be unlikely as Chris said it is unfit for use but there is no harm in asking.

                            Rob

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
                              Never a mention anywhere of his knowing Mary Kelly...

                              The argument is no longer -- was the boxing promoter the one at Abberline's 1892 retirement, but was he the rent collector who knew Mary Kelly? And where was his son, Steve living?
                              How was the ‘rent collector’ described at the Kelly inquest? As a rent collector or as a grocer and a lodging house keeper?

                              When he married in 1895, Steve gave his address as 27, Dorset Street.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

                                Interestingly that’s the Johnson Street that ran between Cable Street and The Commercial Road - where the gasworks was.
                                Quite close to Sutton Place as well. There is colour footage of Johnson Street in the film 'To Sir with love' as that is where the school is.

                                Comment

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