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  • #46
    Originally posted by Rob Clack View Post

    The BNA may have been the wrong people to ask. I'll e-mail the British Library and see if they will scan the original. It will probably be unlikely as Chris said it is unfit for use but there is no harm in asking.

    Rob
    Thanks, Rob. It would be useful to compare the 1902(?) photo to the 1888 line drawing.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Rob Clack View Post

      Quite close to Sutton Place as well. There is colour footage of Johnson Street in the film 'To Sir with love' as that is where the school is.
      Yes, that’s a great film - mainly because of the location.

      I have often wondered whether MJK migrated that way briefly after her Pennington Street episode.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

        Yes, that’s a great film - mainly because of the location.

        I have often wondered whether MJK migrated that way briefly after her Pennington Street episode.
        I had the Gas Works just off Ben Jonson Road near Stepney Green.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Rob Clack View Post

          I had the Gas Works just off Ben Jonson Road near Stepney Green.
          There was also a gasworks between Johnson Street and Hardinge Street. I can’t remember the details off the top of my head.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post

            How was the ‘rent collector’ described at the Kelly inquest? As a rent collector or as a grocer and a lodging house keeper?

            When he married in 1895, Steve gave his address as 27, Dorset Street.
            He was described as a "Grocer Lodging House Keeper." But you knew that.

            How many McCarthy families resided at 27 Dorset Street in 1895?

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post

              He was described as a "Grocer Lodging House Keeper." But you knew that.

              How many McCarthy families resided at 27 Dorset Street in 1895?
              So did you, but you persist in calling him a ‘rent collector’.

              This is a complete waste of time, Scott. French-born John McCarthy, the shopkeeper, landlord and boxing promoter was MJK’s landlord. The only evidence we have of anyone collecting rents is of Thomas Bowyer, McCarthy’s ‘servant’.

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              • #52
                A "rent collector" typically is a Lodging House Keeper. You have no evidence that John McCarthy, Esq., a landowner and boxing promoter, was MJK's landlord.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post

                  Hi Scott. Here's the reasoning behind it........
                  I appreciate the census information, R.J. But it still doesn't answer the fundamental question about McCarthy, Esq. and the Miller's Court McCarthy who knew Kelly being one and the same person.

                  Had I had that notion, or even an inkling, when I wrote my article, I would have included it as a possibility in my piece to spruce it up a bit. But seeing as the Echo reporter never mentioned it, or McCarthy Esq. never being mentioned as knowing the victim in any other publication I was aware of, I never mentioned it.

                  Caution to everyone: Don't be totally taken in by Fiona Rule's book. It's good -- she's a good writer, but there's a lot of haphazard information. There is no direct information that Kay Kendall was related the Miller's Court rent collector.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
                    A "rent collector" typically is a Lodging House Keeper. You have no evidence that John McCarthy, Esq., a landowner and boxing promoter, was MJK's landlord.
                    ‘Typically’? Where on earth do you get your terminology from?

                    A ‘rent collector’ is someone employed by a landlord to collect rents. A lodging house keeper was a businessman who ran a Common Lodging House and usually, although not always, employed deputies to collect the doss. He may or may not have owned the freehold of his business premises.

                    The JM of 1888 was described variously as a grocer, a lodging house keeper and a landlord. He was Thomas Bowyer’s employer and was based at 27, Dorset Street where he lived and where his shop was situated. The French-born JM who was the father of Steve was also a grocer and a lodging house keeper and was resident at 27, Dorset Street where his shop premises were for several decades. Or perhaps French-born JM had moved out briefly in 1888 and another JM appeared on the scene and temporarily took over his business.

                    Perhaps you can answer a question for me. Why was the murder of Mary Ann Austin never mentioned in later press reports about William Crossingham?




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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post

                      I appreciate the census information, R.J. But it still doesn't answer the fundamental question about McCarthy, Esq. and the Miller's Court McCarthy who knew Kelly being one and the same person.

                      Had I had that notion, or even an inkling, when I wrote my article, I would have included it as a possibility in my piece to spruce it up a bit. But seeing as the Echo reporter never mentioned it, or McCarthy Esq. never being mentioned as knowing the victim in any other publication I was aware of, I never mentioned it.

                      Caution to everyone: Don't be totally taken in by Fiona Rule's book. It's good -- she's a good writer, but there's a lot of haphazard information. There is no direct information that Kay Kendall was related the Miller's Court rent collector.
                      Scott, who do you believe was the proprietor of the chandler’s shop at 27, Dorset Street in November, 1888.

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                      • #56
                        If anyone comes across the appropriate Boxing magazine, I'm happy to kick in a few bucks to help buy it, or any other picture of the elusive gent. On an unrelated site I'm on, we often pool resources to buy rare publications which we scan and distribute. I think it's something that could be useful to do here too.
                        Thanks for your time,
                        dusty miller

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                        • #57
                          According to one press report, the John McCarthy who sent Thomas Bowyer to collect rent from MJK was ‘a most respectable man who had recently been awarded a prize for collecting money for the hospitals.’ As had the French-born boxing promoter and father of ‘Steve’.

                          He’s one and the same man, he really is. Scott seems to have overlooked his attendance at Abberline’s retirement do and cannot bring himself to admit it.

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                          • #58
                            Click image for larger version

Name:	6F62642C-BD2A-4C13-9F55-BA8A44684AA3.jpeg
Views:	73
Size:	178.3 KB
ID:	581511 East London Observer Jan 30th, 1886


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                            • #59
                              Arthur Harding's comment, quoted by the "A to Z", seems worth bearing in mind:
                              Click image for larger version

Name:	Harding.jpg
Views:	82
Size:	91.2 KB
ID:	581674

                              https://www.google.co.uk/books/editi...1/V2N4DQAAQBAJ

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post
                                Arthur Harding's comment, quoted by the "A to Z", seems worth bearing in mind:
                                Click image for larger version  Name:	Harding.jpg Views:	0 Size:	91.2 KB ID:	581674

                                https://www.google.co.uk/books/editi...1/V2N4DQAAQBAJ
                                Hi Chris.

                                Arthur Harding has to be treated with a great deal of caution. Over the years I’ve found that a lot of what he says is a garbled version of real events. Look at the extract you’ve provided. There’s no mention of Steve or Marie Kendall and of course, there were doss houses on both sides of the street. Were McCarthy’s daughters all in show business?

                                I get the impression that Harding is often repeating pub gossip that he’s overheard and getting it slightly wrong, but giving the impression that he has first hand knowledge of the people and events he is describing.

                                Gary

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