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  • #16
    Originally posted by Jose Oranto View Post
    In theory, according to Oswald's supposed account, his article was published that same day in a special edition. But still he says that "it was the substance" ... would the ring thing have been excluded after editing it for publication? (I don't think such an interesting detail would have been excluded). He also says that it was published in a "special edition".

    "I hurried back to Fleet Street, where I dashed into the offices of the Gazette and rushed out my report for editing.
    This is what I wrote:
    'Another Horrible Murder in the East End. Early this morning (Saturday, September 8th, 1888) another dreadful murder took place [...] A curious feature of this crime is the murderer had pulled off some brass rings which the victim had been wearing and these, together with some trumpery articles which had been taken from her pockets, were placed carefully at the victim's feet.'
    This report was the substance of an article which appeared in the special edition, and later I returned to Spitalfields."
    Thanks for posting that for everyone, Jose. That is the starting point for the puzzle-Oswald Allen's account has never been found in an edition of the PMG for that date, but there is the possibility that is because it was in an earlier or special edition but I share the same concerns as you, why leave out such an interesting and unique piece of information in a later edition re-write?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post

      Thanks for posting that for everyone, Jose. That is the starting point for the puzzle-Oswald Allen's account has never been found in an edition of the PMG for that date, but there is the possibility that is because it was in an earlier or special edition but I share the same concerns as you, why leave out such an interesting and unique piece of information in a later edition re-write?
      Sorry, it's an obvious question, but how great are the other differences between the version published by Stewart and the known PMG accounts?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post

        Sorry, it's an obvious question, but how great are the other differences between the version published by Stewart and the known PMG accounts?
        As far as I know, the article in the PMG appeared in the fourth edition and is reproduced here: https://www.casebook.org/press_repor.../18880908.html

        Personally, I believe the sentence beginning with "A curious feature" is Allen adding to his original report - the past tense "the murderer had" seems to me to imply this.

        At any rate, from the wording it seems he rushed out a report for editing - the editor then adding or subtracting whatever deemed necessary. So we should perhaps not wonder that something was left out.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Kattrup View Post

          As far as I know, the article in the PMG appeared in the fourth edition and is reproduced here: https://www.casebook.org/press_repor.../18880908.html

          Personally, I believe the sentence beginning with "A curious feature" is Allen adding to his original report - the past tense "the murderer had" seems to me to imply this.

          At any rate, from the wording it seems he rushed out a report for editing - the editor then adding or subtracting whatever deemed necessary. So we should perhaps not wonder that something was left out.
          Yes, that's how the last sentence reads to me. It's just a subjective impression, but I don't think "A curious feature of this crime is ..." feels like the concluding sentence of a newspaper report.

          I don't have Stewart's book, so I can't make the comparison with the transcript on Casebook.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post

            Yes, that's how the last sentence reads to me. It's just a subjective impression, but I don't think "A curious feature of this crime is ..." feels like the concluding sentence of a newspaper report.
            I agree. The sentence would be out of place in a standard newspiece and just feels like someone commenting on the crime at a distance, not a rushed newsflash.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post

              Thanks Kattrup, yes, I have been researching Oswald Allen for a couple of years and I believe this is the same man. Oswald Allen/Allan is a shortened form of his name. I have a definite link to William Stewart's father but it is such a bizarre story that it reads like fiction!
              Ok, interesting. I see what you mean by his death being too early, though. Will be interesting to see what you dig up!

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post

                Yes, that's how the last sentence reads to me. It's just a subjective impression, but I don't think "A curious feature of this crime is ..." feels like the concluding sentence of a newspaper report.

                I don't have Stewart's book, so I can't make the comparison with the transcript on Casebook.
                I see what you and Kattrup mean about this sentence.
                Although the use of 'the murderer had' does put it in the past tense as Kattrup suggests, and possibly means an additional detail is being added after the event, to me the use of 'A curious feature of this crime is' keeps things in the present. Wouldn't he have said 'A curious feature of this crime was ' if he was talking later in the past tense and making additional observations?

                William Stewart wrote his book in 1939 and Oswald Allen was said to be dead at this time but the interview.is not dated.

                The man I have identified died when William Stewart was very young but everything else about him fits, he was a journalist, dramatic author and wrote for a boys periodical, all things mentioned by William Stewart about his source but the thing that makes me not want to dismiss this ID is the fact that this Oswald Allen also had a connection to William's father.
                I will try and outline that connection in some other posts because it would be nice to get an opinion on the ID.

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                • #23
                  Sorry Debra, no luck,

                  There is nothing related to Oswald Allen in 'Life and Letters' by C.F.M. Bell (1927) nor in 'Victorian News and Newspapers' by L. Brown (1985). Apart from the indicated pages I have also checked the indexes. I took photos of the mentioned pages in case it is of any use to you.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Jose Oranto View Post
                    Sorry Debra, no luck,

                    There is nothing related to Oswald Allen in 'Life and Letters' by C.F.M. Bell (1927) nor in 'Victorian News and Newspapers' by L. Brown (1985). Apart from the indicated pages I have also checked the indexes. I took photos of the mentioned pages in case it is of any use to you.
                    Bless you for doing that, Jose. I appreciate it very much. tI's actually really helpful even though there was nothing in the books because it means that I now know none of those books referenced are the source for Oswald Allen being described by Perry as the journalist who wrote most of the Gazette's features about Jack the Ripper. All obviously relate to the information about Stead. So, I'm still source-less! Many thanks.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post

                      Bless you for doing that, Jose. I appreciate it very much. tI's actually really helpful even though there was nothing in the books because it means that I now know none of those books referenced are the source for Oswald Allen being described by Perry as the journalist who wrote most of the Gazette's features about Jack the Ripper. All obviously relate to the information about Stead. So, I'm still source-less! Many thanks.
                      If the referenced sources bring nothing, and you really want to dig, I’d suggest Perry Curtis’ earlier works. It’s not uncommon for an author to include stuff from previous publications and forget to reference it or make a general reference like “this work builds on my previous books about…”.
                      In particular, Apes and Angels might contain something, as it is apparently about caricature of the Irish and Oswald Allan wrote satirical verses and plays.

                      I’ve ordered the book from the royal library and will look through it and let you know

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Kattrup View Post

                        If the referenced sources bring nothing, and you really want to dig, I’d suggest Perry Curtis’ earlier works. It’s not uncommon for an author to include stuff from previous publications and forget to reference it or make a general reference like “this work builds on my previous books about…”.
                        In particular, Apes and Angels might contain something, as it is apparently about caricature of the Irish and Oswald Allan wrote satirical verses and plays.

                        I’ve ordered the book from the royal library and will look through it and let you know
                        Thanks Kattrup, that's very kind of you.

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                        • #27
                          The word 'apparently' in Curtis', suggested to me that his source was none other than the account written at Stewart's. But on the other hand, the word 'many', not mentioned in Stewart's, suggests that his source may have been something else, unless Curtis had taken the liberty of adding it, of course...

                          Today I have to go back to the BL to consult some books, so if any of you can think of any other book or document to consult, I can take a look

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