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  • Kitty Roman

    In many places, its written as Kitty Ronan.
    Thanks to Mark Ripper for confirming the authentic surname.

    https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brow...7-77#highlight
    To Join JTR Forums :
    Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

  • #2
    Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
    In many places, its written as Kitty Ronan.
    Thanks to Mark Ripper for confirming the authentic surname.

    https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brow...7-77#highlight
    Look again at the transcript on the Old Bailey trial, Howard. There's neither "Kitty Roman" nor "Kitty Ronan" on the page.

    The victim's name is rendered as both "Kitty Roran" and "Kitty Noran." I am assuming that in the end the woman's name was determined to be Kitty Ronan, as it is usually rendered. Or possibly Mr Ripper is correct that it was Roman. Anti-vertigo pills anyone?

    Howard, you yourself quoted the same transcript in a post here back in 2017. See here.

    Best regards

    Chris
    Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
    https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

    Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
    Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

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    • #3
      Harold Hall's death sentence was commuted and he appears in the 1911 census as a prisoner in Maidstone.
      Attached Files

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      • #4
        Andy Aliffe says that 'Kitty' was identified by her mother Mrs E Dresch and her father Andrew Ronan.


        I don't know where father Andrew Ronan comes in, but as far as I can see her real name was Edith Eleanor Dresch, registered Q1 1887 in Islington. Parents Edith Eleanor Dresch nee Field and Charles Dresch who married at Holborn Q4 1885.


        In 1891 they were at 39 Bowling Green Lane, Clerkenwell and the younger Edith is present. She isn't with the family in 1901, when they are at 42 Queensland Rd, Islington. In 1911 the family are at 33 Dingley Rd, St Luke.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
          Andy Aliffe says that 'Kitty' was identified by her mother Mrs E Dresch and her father Andrew Ronan.


          I don't know where father Andrew Ronan comes in, but as far as I can see her real name was Edith Eleanor Dresch, registered Q1 1887 in Islington. Parents Edith Eleanor Dresch nee Field and Charles Dresch who married at Holborn Q4 1885.


          In 1891 they were at 39 Bowling Green Lane, Clerkenwell and the younger Edith is present. She isn't with the family in 1901, when they are at 42 Queensland Rd, Islington. In 1911 the family are at 33 Dingley Rd, St Luke.
          The father was said to come from Fulham, and there was a Fulham-based Roman family with Andrew as its head and a daughter Katie b1884.

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          • #6
            Presumably this is the death registration:

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            • #7
              Hi Gary


              It seems like someone - either Roman or Dresch - had their wires crossed. If she was Andrew's then she'd have been born in America and come over at an early age. So explains why no American accent?

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              • #8
                The ELA of 10th July carried this:

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
                  Hi Gary


                  It seems like someone - either Roman or Dresch - had their wires crossed. If she was Andrew's then she'd have been born in America and come over at an early age. So explains why no American accent?
                  Yes, certainly in London by age 7, so any American accent would have largely disappeared by age 24.

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                  • #10
                    Well, it looks like Dresch couldn't recognize her own daughter. Bizarre.


                    I was just about to post :


                    (Weedy bloke going into phone box) "This is a job" ((emerges with deep, booming voice) "for Superfran!"

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                    • #11
                      Gary

                      Thanks for the death cert. with the correct surname.
                      To Join JTR Forums :
                      Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
                        Well, it looks like Dresch couldn't recognize her own daughter. Bizarre.


                        I was just about to post :


                        (Weedy bloke going into phone box) "This is a job" ((emerges with deep, booming voice) "for Superfran!"
                        Andrew had the same wife in 1891 and 1901, so if this is the right family, then Kitty’s mother must have died when she was seven or younger. Or possibly seventeen or older. Unless the stepmother was impersonating Andrew’s first wife. 😉

                        The fact that Andrew felt it necessary to mention Kitty being offered a good home after he remarried suggests to me that there may have been some issue between Kitty and her stepmother.

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                        • #13
                          1891 wife: Annie b. 1863 Gloster Clanfield

                          1901 wife: Annie b. 1865 Clanfield Oxfordsh

                          1911 wife: Annie b. 1869 Bampton Oxfordshire

                          in 1911 the marriage was said to have lasted 20 years.

                          Then there’s a marriage to another Annie (Monk) in 1915.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                            1891 wife: Annie b. 1863 Gloster Clanfield

                            1901 wife: Annie b. 1865 Clanfield Oxfordsh

                            1911 wife: Annie b. 1869 Bampton Oxfordshire

                            in 1911 the marriage was said to have lasted 20 years.

                            Then there’s a marriage to another Annie (Monk) in 1915.
                            But in New York in 1880, Andrew’s wife was Maria, so Annie would indeed have been Kitty’s stepmother.

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                            • #15
                              When I looked on the GRO the children being born to Annie had mother's name Monk, and I couldn't find any Roman/Monk marriage to account for them. I think it must have been the 1915 one - they got married late.

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