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Questions Regarding The Swanson Marginalia From "The Definitive JTR" Documentary

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  • Paul
    replied
    Originally posted by Phil Carter View Post
    Hello all,

    I do not know whether this has been discussed before or nay, but ask something that may be pertinent to the faded pencil annotations.

    Do we know under what lighting conditions the book was whilst under display at the museum? The strength of light used? The distance from the light source to the display? Whether the displayed article was under a specific type of glass or material that is designed to protect pencil writing on paper from fading over time? Do we know whether the covered book was left at an open page each day of display?

    Whether any of these answers can help I do not know. All I do know is that many museums have specific lighting etc as questioned above for protection of their artifacts.

    I also believe, though am not sure, that room temperature and humidity is also taken into consideration.

    I thank you for your considerations and hopefully comments upon this subject.

    best wishes

    Phil
    Yes, I do know how the book is displayed. The Crime Museum takes extreme care of its artefacts. In this case the book is in a protectivecase and only the endpaper notations are on display, thus the marginal writings would not fade as a consequence of the book being on display. That writings have faded due to two decades of the book being opened and closed to that page, hence the acetate being put in place. There are absolutely no grounds that I know of for suspecting that the book has suffered in any way whilst it has been in the custody of the Crime Museum.

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  • Phil Carter
    replied
    Lighting

    Hello all,

    I do not know whether this has been discussed before or nay, but ask something that may be pertinent to the faded pencil annotations.

    Do we know under what lighting conditions the book was whilst under display at the museum? The strength of light used? The distance from the light source to the display? Whether the displayed article was under a specific type of glass or material that is designed to protect pencil writing on paper from fading over time? Do we know whether the covered book was left at an open page each day of display?

    Whether any of these answers can help I do not know. All I do know is that many museums have specific lighting etc as questioned above for protection of their artifacts.

    I also believe, though am not sure, that room temperature and humidity is also taken into consideration.

    I thank you for your considerations and hopefully comments upon this subject.

    best wishes

    Phil

    Leave a comment:


  • Jeff Leahy
    replied
    Originally posted by Paul View Post
    Ah, I surmised as much when I belatedly saw "RH" after I had pressed "submit reply", otherwise I wondered what you were telling me I was wrong about and what bearing the different coloured pencils had on the faded marginal writing. Sadly, the threads in the 'other place' about the marginalia have plumbed the depths of nonsense and I fear that Rob is wasting his time.
    Paul I wouldn't presume to say you were wrong.

    But there were a number of things that struck me. As I say I'm no expert so its just opinion.

    But the purple colour was very distinct in daylight. Yet our cameras (Presumably much better quality than anything previously used) were struggling to define the purple colour in tungston light.

    And as mentioned the writing in the bottom left seemed to cut quite deeply into the page.

    I thought Robs analysis of how he thought it written most interesting and if it had of been available at the time an interesting idea to follow...

    Actually i think my piont was, its not surprising that the purple colour was missed early on, if the examineers were using artificial light rather than day light...

    Trust u well things going slow here..something up with Nitros..

    Yours Jeff

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul
    replied
    Originally posted by Jeff Leahy View Post
    Hi Paul the above quote is from Rob House re: the purple coloured pencil.

    The pionty I was trying to make, that given my own observations we should be cautious about the colour which is prominent under certain light conditions but could be easily over looked in other lighting conditions.

    Jeff
    Ah, I surmised as much when I belatedly saw "RH" after I had pressed "submit reply", otherwise I wondered what you were telling me I was wrong about and what bearing the different coloured pencils had on the faded marginal writing. Sadly, the threads in the 'other place' about the marginalia have plumbed the depths of nonsense and I fear that Rob is wasting his time.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul
    replied
    Originally posted by Jeff Leahy View Post
    Yes Most interesting. I wish I'd seen this before viewing the Marginalia..

    The writing in the bottom left corner is now very faded as Paul says..

    However my opinion (and I'm not an expert) is that it was written with a very hard sharpe pencil that cut deep into the paper fibre. Even showing signs under high magnification that the pencil tip was braking ie not a smooth layering of grafite as with the other pencil.

    Yours Jeff
    Yes, it is excellent. Maybe he'd let us use it on the DVD?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jeff Leahy
    replied
    Originally posted by SirRobertAnderson View Post
    Rob has a great post over on the Casebook:

    http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...344#post163344
    Yes Most interesting. I wish I'd seen this before viewing the Marginalia..

    The writing in the bottom left corner is now very faded as Paul says..

    However my opinion (and I'm not an expert) is that it was written with a very hard sharpe pencil that cut deep into the paper fibre. Even showing signs under high magnification that the pencil tip was braking ie not a smooth layering of grafite as with the other pencil.

    Yours Jeff

    Leave a comment:


  • SirRobertAnderson
    replied
    Rob has a great post over on the Casebook:

    http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...344#post163344

    Originally posted by Jeff Leahy View Post
    Hi Paul the above quote is from Rob House re: the purple coloured pencil.

    The pionty I was trying to make, that given my own observations we should be cautious about the colour which is prominent under certain light conditions but could be easily over looked in other lighting conditions.

    Jeff

    Leave a comment:


  • Jeff Leahy
    replied
    Originally posted by Paul View Post
    Sorry, Jeff, I have no idea what you are talking about. I referred to the writing having faded in the 20 years since I last saw the marginalia and it has. Robert Anderson asked why, and I said it was probably due to the writing having been rubbed during the last 20 years, which is why a piece of acetate was placed between the pages. I am not sure what the lighting conditions, TV camera lighting, or anything else has to do with that. Or what the quote with which you open your post refers to.
    Hi Paul the above quote is from Rob House re: the purple coloured pencil.

    The pionty I was trying to make, that given my own observations we should be cautious about the colour which is prominent under certain light conditions but could be easily over looked in other lighting conditions.

    Jeff

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul
    replied
    Originally posted by Jeff Leahy View Post
    "First, you are wrong. Second, the fact that the pencil is quite faded means that it is even harder to see the difference in color. I would imagine this is much easier to see when looking at the original document. I would also imagine Davies probably used magnification when looking at the original. I mean, are you really trying to say that you are making your conclusions about the pencil color from looking at a low resolution, non-color corrected jpg online? That is revealing.

    RH"

    Hi Paul

    Perhaps as someone with a photographic back ground this is something I noticed more than others....However given this discussion else where in relation to Johns photo... I would simply erge caution.

    The lighting conditions make a considerable difference to the purple coloured pencil, which as I say, very noticable in daylight 5600k plus deminishes at lower light, tunston and UV.

    I'm not sure what you mean by normal daylight, colour temperature varies? (bright summer day - rainy winter day) were the TV camera lighting balance blue or orange?

    Yours Jeff
    Sorry, Jeff, I have no idea what you are talking about. I referred to the writing having faded in the 20 years since I last saw the marginalia and it has. Robert Anderson asked why, and I said it was probably due to the writing having been rubbed during the last 20 years, which is why a piece of acetate was placed between the pages. I am not sure what the lighting conditions, TV camera lighting, or anything else has to do with that. Or what the quote with which you open your post refers to.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jeff Leahy
    replied
    "First, you are wrong. Second, the fact that the pencil is quite faded means that it is even harder to see the difference in color. I would imagine this is much easier to see when looking at the original document. I would also imagine Davies probably used magnification when looking at the original. I mean, are you really trying to say that you are making your conclusions about the pencil color from looking at a low resolution, non-color corrected jpg online? That is revealing.

    RH"

    Hi Paul

    Perhaps as someone with a photographic back ground this is something I noticed more than others....However given this discussion else where in relation to Johns photo... I would simply erge caution.

    The lighting conditions make a considerable difference to the purple coloured pencil, which as I say, very noticable in daylight 5600k plus deminishes at lower light, tunston and UV.

    I'm not sure what you mean by normal daylight, colour temperature varies? (bright summer day - rainy winter day) were the TV camera lighting balance blue or orange?

    Yours Jeff

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul
    replied
    Originally posted by Jeff Leahy View Post
    Its the harder pencil marks that have faded the most...

    Under UV however these markings were actually clear, the sharp tip of the pencil having cut into the paper..

    I still think the most interesting thing was the colour. A marked difference in daylight and tungston.

    Can you remember what light conditions you originally examined the document under?

    Yours Jeff
    It was twenty years ago. I don't know what the light conditions were like yesterday! But basivally, normal daylight and also under television camera lights.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jeff Leahy
    replied
    Originally posted by Paul View Post
    I'm no expert, but I think the "fading" has been caused more by the writing being rubbed as the pages have been opened and closed over the past 20 years or so. A piece of acetate now rests between the two pages to help prevent this. Opening the pages has also weakened the binding at the point where the marinalia is located and I took enormous care when opening the book to that page, not only to protect the binding, but also to stop the pages rubbing.
    Its the harder pencil marks that have faded the most...

    Under UV however these markings were actually clear, the sharp tip of the pencil having cut into the paper..

    I still think the most interesting thing was the colour. A marked difference in daylight and tungston.

    Can you remember what light conditions you originally examined the document under?

    Yours Jeff

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul
    replied
    Originally posted by SirRobertAnderson View Post
    It's amazing, ain't it, what people will tell you if you ask politely ?

    Paul, I am puzzled by the fading of the pencil marks. I've been poking around the web, and some people seem to feel pencil actually lasts longer than pen.

    Here's one link:

    http://www.collectspace.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/002173.html

    and another :

    http://www.pencilrevolution.com/2010...-term-writing/

    I'm no expert, but I think the "fading" has been caused more by the writing being rubbed as the pages have been opened and closed over the past 20 years or so. A piece of acetate now rests between the two pages to help prevent this. Opening the pages has also weakened the binding at the point where the marinalia is located and I took enormous care when opening the book to that page, not only to protect the binding, but also to stop the pages rubbing.

    Leave a comment:


  • SirRobertAnderson
    replied
    Originally posted by Cris Malone View Post
    Thank you very much, Paul, for your response. To me, it says all that is needed to say.
    It's amazing, ain't it, what people will tell you if you ask politely ?

    Paul, I am puzzled by the fading of the pencil marks. I've been poking around the web, and some people seem to feel pencil actually lasts longer than pen.

    Here's one link:

    http://www.collectspace.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/002173.html

    and another :

    http://www.pencilrevolution.com/2010...-term-writing/

    Leave a comment:


  • Cris Malone
    replied
    Thank you very much, Paul, for your response. To me, it says all that is needed to say.

    I've had a taste of being involved in a few American Civil War documentaries ( not on the level you were here, they just mainly wanted my horse) and I can appreciate the effort involved in such an endeavor. This was one fine piece of work.

    Leave a comment:

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