Sor or Sir?

[Paul Butler]

Stage Irish was very popular at the time. Have a look at this google search:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...C+Sor%22+Irish

By contrast, the 29 October 1888 letter to Dr. Openshaw seems to be written in a Cornish accent and references a West Country rhyme at the end. I do think there is a case to be made that both letters were by the same person and someone was playacting with both, pulling a prank sending the half a kidney with the "From Hell" letter received 16 October and then needling the man whom he believed had been sent the kidney for analysis.

All the best

Chris

Morning Chris.

As a Westcountry boy myself, I must admit I'd always thought of the Openshaw letter as an atrocious sort of "cod cockney" in the Dick van Dyke, Johnny Depp school of awful London accents, and don't see anything, (except possibly "innerds"), that makes me think Cornish or westcountry at all.

It just goes to show how all our perceptions are slightly different on this sort of thing depending on where we come from etc.

Without doubt both the Lusk and Openshaw letters are written by people hiding behind some sort of assumed persona, hence the artificial and contrived way of "speaking", (whether this means the author was writing in an assumed accent or not), and I do believe could well be one and the same person.

If so, then it seems to me likely that the author was a well educated type, trying to emulate, (rather badly it must be said), a working class Ripper. Did real cockneys ever use expressions like "dror mi nife along of er bloomin throte"? I don't suppose we can ever be really sure, but it sounds very fake to me.

Regards.

Paul.

[Howard Brown]

This is a pretty neat thread...

Just think how most of us have the idea that "mishter" and "sor" are "givens" when we think about the FH letter. Also in that we think "Irish affectation" too.

I'm of the opinion that the little loop is the dot and it is in fact "Sir"


Mishter could also be Mister... here's another way to look at it.
What looks like an "h" could be an "s". I think where some see an "h" hump is actually the finishing of the s final loop. It's just my opinion that it's Sir and Mister, but I also see how it could be seen as Sor and Mishter.

Well, Dickens was pretty much the rage in the mid and late Victorian period, and his characters' dialogue in the books is peppered with attempts at representing regional pronunciation. I daresay other authors followed suit, and those who read their works would have been quite familiar with the idiom.

Hello Sam, I've never really thought about this subject much. I know that authors use dialects in their books but would authors believe that the characters would literally write as they think in a letter ?

Where I live people tend to say the same words over and over in a single conversation - usually one of the following - 'my darling, my love, my lover, hello my lovely' to name just a few - yet I've never written that down in a letter, nor does anyone I know. Nor do I use those phrases writing in forums.

So what kind of person thinks that people do write like that?

Well, Dickens was pretty much the rage in the mid and late Victorian period, and his characters' dialogue in the books is peppered with attempts at representing regional pronunciation. I daresay other authors followed suit, and those who read their works would have been quite familiar with the idiom.

Thanks for the replies Paul and Chris.

Actually I always thought it was a OTT upper class type of 'sor' like you imagine someone working for Prince Charles.

And I just enjoyed reading that line Chris - 'written in a Cornish accent' it made me smile. Although I do know what you mean.

And as for the Irish accent. It's strange but whenever I hear someone talking like that I imagine they are putting it on.

Where I live people tend to say the same words over and over in a single conversation - usually one of the following - 'my darling, my love, my lover, hello my lovely' to name just a few - yet I've never written that down in a letter, nor does anyone I know. Nor do I use those phrases writing in forums.

So what kind of person thinks that people do write like that?

[Chris G.]

Hi FX.

This was discussed on casebook a year or so back. I think the idea was that the writer was trying to implicate the Irish using some sort of feeble attempt at a stage Irish accent. A sort of OTT fake Irish "Sergeant Seamus O'Shaunessy of Precinct 47" or whatever as we used to see in some of the old black and white gangster films.

Like I said, it's an idea that doesn't really do it for me, but Irish is about the only dialect in the English language I can think of where Sir might just possibly be pronounced Sor.

If it's just a spelling mistake, why not "ser", or "Sur"? Both of which would be more likely, being pronounced the same as "Sir"?

Regards.

Paul

Stage Irish was very popular at the time. Have a look at this google search:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...C+Sor%22+Irish

By contrast, the 29 October 1888 letter to Dr. Openshaw seems to be written in a Cornish accent and references a West Country rhyme at the end. I do think there is a case to be made that both letters were by the same person and someone was playacting with both, pulling a prank sending the half a kidney with the "From Hell" letter received 16 October and then needling the man whom he believed had been sent the kidney for analysis.

All the best

Chris

[Paul Butler]

Hi FX.

This was discussed on casebook a year or so back. I think the idea was that the writer was trying to implicate the Irish using some sort of feeble attempt at a stage Irish accent. A sort of OTT fake Irish "Sergeant Seamus O'Shaunessy of Precinct 47" or whatever as we used to see in some of the old black and white gangster films.

Like I said, it's an idea that doesn't really do it for me, but Irish is about the only dialect in the English language I can think of where Sir might just possibly be pronounced Sor.

If it's just a spelling mistake, why not "ser", or "Sur"? Both of which would be more likely, being pronounced the same as "Sir"?

Regards.

Paul

Hi Paul, I never thought of it as Irish.

[Paul Butler]

I sometimes write in a fancy style like that at times and do make mistakes easily if I'm distracted. If this writer was an upper-class BBC type then he would be hearing 'sor' instead of 'sir' in his head. Or he might have been speaking aloud in that accent as normally he spoke differently. So once again I think he did write 'sor' and not 'sir'.

I know its been suggested that "Sor" and "Mishter" are supposed to convey to the reader some sort of Irishness about this letter. I'm not really very convinced by that idea I have to say, but what it really all comes down to is the lack of a dot over the disputed letter.

Regards.

Paul

Hi all.

The i/o in question here is the only one that follows a fancy copperplate S.

The way the S is formed with a sort of double loop causes the upward loop to what I think is an I, start much higher up than in "signed" giving the impression that it could be an O.

I'm still convinced its a correctly spelled "Sir".

Would someone educated enough to be able to make a decent stab at copperplate style writing misspell such an easy word unintentionally?

Regards to all.

Paul

I sometimes write in a fancy style like that at times and do make mistakes easily if I'm distracted. If this writer was an upper-class BBC type then he would be hearing 'sor' instead of 'sir' in his head. Or he might have been speaking aloud in that accent as normally he spoke differently. So once again I think he did write 'sor' and not 'sir'.

The end half loop of the supposed O in Sor looks like the beginning of the R instead. If you say it's an O because it looks like other Os then what you are left with doesn't look like the other Rs... but then if it's an I it's missing the dot from the other Is. So you have to ask yourself if it's more likely the author would draw an R that's half formed or forget to dot the I. To me it could go either way based upon the handwriting alone, but based upon the meaning of the words Sir has the obvious edge.

[Paul Butler]

Hi all.

The i/o in question here is the only one that follows a fancy copperplate S.

The way the S is formed with a sort of double loop causes the upward loop to what I think is an I, start much higher up than in "signed" giving the impression that it could be an O.

I'm still convinced its a correctly spelled "Sir".

Would someone educated enough to be able to make a decent stab at copperplate style writing misspell such an easy word unintentionally?

Regards to all.

Paul

[AP Wolf]

Wow Chris, you wobble more than George Bush senior, I wouldn't like to be taking on Helman province with you as an ally.

[Chris G.]

For me it is SOR because the 'i' in kidney looks completely different. I think it was written with am 'o' because he was hearing it in his head not thinking about the proper spelling.

Good point. There is also the example of the "Si" in "Signed" where he is also going directly from the "S" to the next letter, so maybe it is after all "Sor." Back to square one.

Chris