"From hell" spelling and grammar

[Paul Butler]

P.S.

.....and having taken another really close look at the facsimile, I'm not even particularly convinced that it does say "prasarved". Taken out of context you'd be hard pressed to decide what it was meant to say.

P

[Paul Butler]

Thanks for those examples SamF, but I have to say I'm still amazed at how anyone can consider "prasarved" to be an Irish sounding or even "Oirish" version of "preserved". Perhaps the accent was much thicker in the nineteenth century and it really did sound like that, but I'm still rather unconvinced. "Presorved" yes, but "Prasarved"....NO! Still, its clear from your examples that some people at the time disagree with me.

I suppose it could be the same sort of thing as BBC "Mummerset" style westcountry accents, where words like "butter" are always pronounced as "budder" even though no self respecting westcountry person has ever pronounced it so, nor ever will. People hear the poor fake accent more widely than the real thing, start to accept it as genuine and so it goes on.

But my point still stands. You can't really conclude that the writer of the Lusk letter intended it to be read as if written by an Irishman, or as an "Oirish" joke, based on just one word out of fifty odd!

"Sor", is most definitely correctly written as "Sir", and that is the word that seems to have brought this Irish idea about in the first place. Tother isn't remotely Irish. "Mishter" is NOT "Misther". That's taking things a bit too far, suggesting that its actually a mis-spelling of an Irish pronunciation of Mister.

What it all boils down to is a letter with one stage Irish sounding word, another that sounds like a stage drunk, and a lot of rather implausible mis-spellings.

Isn't it a lot more likely that "prasarved" and "mishter" are just rather poorly conceived mis-spellings like all the others in the same letter?

I really think so.

regards.

Paul

"Prasarved" as an Irish pronunciation of Preserved is just weird!

I don't think so, Paul. Have a sound sample:

http://www.btinternet.com/~gareth.h..../from-heel.mp3

...or, if you don't trust my dodgy Irish accent, some examples from 19th Century texts:

"Presarve! hadn't they better cry royalty over the broad sea... Heaven's name! what have they to presarve?" (The Sportsman in Ireland, 1840)

"I presarve 'em underground, in an air of liberty which British oppression has never tainted" (The Lover's Pilgrimage, 1846)

"Do you give me the touch av your shoulther to presarve my formation... but we must presarve thim. What d'you want to do, Sorr?" (Soldiers Three, Kipling, 1890)

"God presarve us an' save us this night!" (Traits and Stories of the Irish Peasantry, 1896)

"you are presarved from his cursed arts" (The Dublin Penny Journal, 1834)

"Not where mere flesh an' blood is consarned. I'm afeard of neither man nor woman — but I wouldn't like to meet a ghost or spirit, may the Lord presarve us!" (The Dublin University Magazine, 1846)

"Saint Pathrick prasarve us!" (Our Young Folks, 1866)

[Paul Butler]

I'm not, Paul - I'm hanging it on the evidence of three or four.

Re "prasarved"... never heard the stereotypical pronunciation of "top of the maarning"?

Of course I have. In that instance the vowel being replaced is a hard "o", not an "e". Not the same thing at all.

"Prasarved" as an Irish pronunciation of Preserved is just weird! If the second "e" had been replaced with an "o" I might have been more inclined to believe it.

When the author of this letter wrote "knif", he didn't expect the reader to interpret it as niff did he?....or read "whil" as will? Of course not. Its a crappy attempt at crap spelling thats all. Same as Mishter.

regards.

Paul

I can see what you're getting at with mishter/misther, but to hang a theory on the evidence of just one word is a bit feeble.

I'm not, Paul - I'm hanging it on the evidence of three or four.

Re "prasarved"... never heard the stereotypical pronunciation of "top of the maarning"?

Don't cockneys add "haitches" to words that shouldn't have them as in "urricanes 'ardly hever 'appen?

Dropped aitches or spurious aspirates tacked onto vowels are one thing, but no Cockney uses an "h" as a consonant modifier, such as happens when the "s" in "mister" becomes a "SH".

Knowing full well that "knife" starts with a kicking K and then leaving out the "e" is just a rubbish attempt at trying to appear illiterate. He should have written "nife".

So he was trying to appear as illiterate and Irish? The two possibilities certainly aren't mutually exclusive - in fact, as far as old stereotypes are concerned, these two go hand in glove.

[Paul Butler]

I disagree, Paul. At least "mishter" (to me, a possible misapplication of the stage Irish "misther", where the "h" is used to soften the "t") and "wate" (implying a "flat vowel" on the "a") could be seen as an attempt at Oirish.I can understand someone trying to fake illiteracy by dropping the odd letter here and there - as in "knif", and possibly "whil" - however, I find it hard to believe that someone would add a completely spurious "h" to "mister", unless they were trying to emulate a specific kind of accent or dialect. The use of "prasarved" and "tother" might be a manifestation of the same approach.

I expect we shall have to agree to disagree then SamF.

There's nothing remotely Oirish about "tother" which is used all over the British Isles and probably was even more so in 1888.

"Prasarved" doesn't sound even vaguely Irish to me , at least I don't think I've heard any real Irishman speak that way. Not even your stereotypical Sgt. O'Malley from precinct 45 in the old black and white films.

I can see what you're getting at with mishter/misther, but to hang a theory on the evidence of just one word is a bit feeble.

Don't cockneys add "haitches" to words that shouldn't have them as in "urricanes 'ardly hever 'appen?

Knowing full well that "knife" starts with a kicking K and then leaving out the "e" is just a rubbish attempt at trying to appear illiterate. He should have written "nife".

If anything, the Lusk letter reads to me more like someone trying to appear to be pissed, (in the English sense of the word that is!), and was written as a rather poor joke.

Regards.

Paul

That's very true SamF, but none of those examples are even remotely Oirish sounding are they?

I disagree, Paul. At least "mishter" (to me, a possible misapplication of the stage Irish "misther", where the "h" is used to soften the "t") and "wate" (implying a "flat vowel" on the "a") could be seen as an attempt at Oirish.

To my mind, this letter was written as a bad joke by someone perfectly good at spelling

I can understand someone trying to fake illiteracy by dropping the odd letter here and there - as in "knif", and possibly "whil" - however, I find it hard to believe that someone would add a completely spurious "h" to "mister", unless they were trying to emulate a specific kind of accent or dialect. The use of "prasarved" and "tother" might be a manifestation of the same approach.

[Paul Butler]

Apropos the Oirishness, there's always the "prasarved" and "mishter", though, Paul - and possibly "tother" and "whil".

That's very true SamF, but none of those examples are even remotely Oirish sounding are they? It seems it was the "Sor" that gave some people the idea that the author was mocking an Oirish accent, but as it quite plainly is "Sir", then that idea really doesn't work.

To my mind, this letter was written as a bad joke by someone perfectly good at spelling, and almost certainly wasn't penned by Jack.

Paul

[Howard Brown]

Ay, she did,boyo...and saints be praised, but he was 'a wearin' the collar o' the cleric of that peculiar parish o' the Wayward Sisters of The Sapient Conclusion of Ballyshannon.

It would be a fine thing to be a fly on the wall in Marsh's shop that fine day in October, would it not,laddie?

Also, remember the woman who testified about the guy that was stalking Lusk and asked for his address? Didn't she say he spoke with an Irish accent?

That's interesting. There was me thinking I was in a tiny minority of one in my belief that the Lusk letter spells "Sir" quite correctly, and that in no way is it trying to sound "Oirish".

Apropos the Oirishness, there's always the "prasarved" and "mishter", though, Paul - and possibly "tother" and "whil".

[SirRobertAnderson]

Ah, I see, Howard. I also am inclined to believe that the Lusk letter is legit. In fact, I'm not against the possibility that maybe another of the multitude of letters may be from the killer.

That makes three of us, at least , then.

[Paul Butler]

That's interesting. There was me thinking I was in a tiny minority of one in my belief that the Lusk letter spells "Sir" quite correctly, and that in no way is it trying to sound "Oirish".

I feel better for that!

Paul

Ah, I see, Howard. I also am inclined to believe that the Lusk letter is legit. In fact, I'm not against the possibility that maybe another of the multitude of letters may be from the killer. Now, please, don't shoot me. I am NOT saying the majority of the letters are genuine (unlike our fellow sleuth, Patty) and most are probably fakes. but, since you've said the author was intentionally trying to mask his grammar and spelling, then it stands to reason that maybe some of the other letters may be from the guy, though not necessairily the "Dear boss" or "saucy jack" ones.

I do in fact, have that book (one of my favorites) . I'll have to re-read the part on the Lusk letter.

[Howard Brown]

JT:

Right now, I feel its likely that the Lusk letter is legit. I know many don't. I can only guess that he was intentionally trying to disguise his writing.

He actually doesn't write the word "sir" as "sor". Thats a harmless and humorous canard thats made its way into the books,JT. Take a closer look at the word again...if you have the seminal book, Letters From Hell, by SPE/Skinner, you'll see what I mean.