"From hell" spelling and grammar

[Paul Butler]

P.S.

.....and having taken another really close look at the facsimile, I'm not even particularly convinced that it does say "prasarved". Taken out of context you'd be hard pressed to decide what it was meant to say.

P

[Sam Flynn]

You can't really conclude that the writer of the Lusk letter intended it to be read as if written by an Irishman, or as an "Oirish" joke, based on just one word out of fifty odd!

It's not just one word, though, Paul. Not only do we have "prasarved", but there's also "mishter", "tother" and possibly "whil" or even "kidne". These latter might not have been attempts at mis-spellings, but at conveying an "ethnic" pronunciation, as I'm pretty convinced that "prasarved" and "mishter" were. One simply doesn't mis-spell "mister" by inserting an "h", and the conventional cod-Irish spelling most definitely used an interpolated "h", albeit after the "t", to give "misther".

[SPE]

Facsimile?

P.S.
.....and having taken another really close look at the facsimile, I'm not even particularly convinced that it does say "prasarved". Taken out of context you'd be hard pressed to decide what it was meant to say.
P

What facsimile?

[Paul Butler]

What facsimile?

The one in your book. Is that important?

Paul

[Chris G.]

Thanks for those examples SamF, but I have to say I'm still amazed at how anyone can consider "prasarved" to be an Irish sounding or even "Oirish" version of "preserved". Perhaps the accent was much thicker in the nineteenth century and it really did sound like that, but I'm still rather unconvinced. "Presorved" yes, but "Prasarved"....NO! Still, its clear from your examples that some people at the time disagree with me.

I suppose it could be the same sort of thing as BBC "Mummerset" style westcountry accents, where words like "butter" are always pronounced as "budder" even though no self respecting westcountry person has ever pronounced it so, nor ever will. People hear the poor fake accent more widely than the real thing, start to accept it as genuine and so it goes on.

But my point still stands. You can't really conclude that the writer of the Lusk letter intended it to be read as if written by an Irishman, or as an "Oirish" joke, based on just one word out of fifty odd!

"Sor", is most definitely correctly written as "Sir", and that is the word that seems to have brought this Irish idea about in the first place. Tother isn't remotely Irish. "Mishter" is NOT "Misther". That's taking things a bit too far, suggesting that its actually a mis-spelling of an Irish pronunciation of Mister.

What it all boils down to is a letter with one stage Irish sounding word, another that sounds like a stage drunk, and a lot of rather implausible mis-spellings.

Isn't it a lot more likely that "prasarved" and "mishter" are just rather poorly conceived mis-spellings like all the others in the same letter?

I really think so.

regards.

Paul

Hello Paul

I think there's a good case to be made that the letter writer of the Lusk letter writer and the Openshaw letter were one and the same. There's similar sloppy writing in both and the same use of dialect expressions, the "stage Irish" in the Lusk letter and Cockney dialect in the Openshaw letter. Particularly note the cheeky rhyme at the end with its misspelled "devle", "mikerscope" and "scalpul" just like the misspelled "prasarved" in the Lusk letter:

Old boss you was rite it was
the left kidny i was goin to
hoperate agin close to your
ospitle just as i was goin
to dror mi nife along of
er bloomin throte them
cusses of coppers spoilt
the game but i guess i wil
be on the job soon and will
send you another bit of
innerds

Jack the Ripper

O have you seen the devle
with his mikerscope and scalpul
a-lookin at a kidney
with a slide cocked up.

See Casebook's Wiki page on the Openshaw Letter for more discussion of this letter.

So, Paul, I think your resistance to the letter writer putting on an accent in the Lusk letter is ill-based and you ought to rethink your position.

Chris

[Paul Butler]

It's not just one word, though, Paul. Not only do we have "prasarved", but there's also "mishter", "tother" and possibly "whil" or even "kidne". These latter might not have been attempts at mis-spellings, but at conveying an "ethnic" pronunciation, as I'm pretty convinced that "prasarved" and "mishter" were. One simply doesn't mis-spell "mister" by inserting an "h", and the conventional cod-Irish spelling most definitely used an interpolated "h", albeit after the "t", to give "misther".

But Sam, "tother" isn't Irish! It's used all over the place, and probably was even more so in the 1880s.

Whil and kidne Irish? Not in a million years.

If you look at the L in whil, it has a tiny curl on its end like an embryonic e, and it's a lot more likely that the missing letter is unintentional and caused by bad penmanship than anything else.

I don't recall reading that anyone at the time came up with this Irish theory?

Basing this idea on one word out of forty odd, (OK one and a half if you count a wrongly spelled Misther), is way too much of a stretch of the imagination for me I'm afraid.

Like I said, we shall have to agree to differ.

Paul

[Paul Butler]

Hello Paul

I think there's a good case to be made that the letter writer of the Lusk letter writer and the Openshaw letter were one and the same. There's similar sloppy writing in both and the same use of dialect expressions, the "stage Irish" in the Lusk letter and Cockney dialect in the Openshaw letter. Particularly note the cheeky rhyme at the end with its misspelled "devle", "mikerscope" and "scalpul" just like the misspelled "prasarved" in the Lusk letter:

Old boss you was rite it was
the left kidny i was goin to
hoperate agin close to your
ospitle just as i was goin
to dror mi nife along of
er bloomin throte them
cusses of coppers spoilt
the game but i guess i wil
be on the job soon and will
send you another bit of
innerds

Jack the Ripper

O have you seen the devle
with his mikerscope and scalpul
a-lookin at a kidney
with a slide cocked up.

See Casebook's Wiki page on the Openshaw Letter for more discussion of this letter.

So, Paul, I think your resistance to the letter writer putting on an accent in the Lusk letter is ill-based and you ought to rethink your position.

Chris

Hi Chris.

I absolutely agree with you on your first point. In fact I was about to mention the Openshaw letter as another reason why I think the Oirishness of the Lusk letter is more imagined than anything else, but didn't want to use a sledgehammer to try and crack a small nut.

I certainly do believe that the same author wrote both letters, but as the Openshaw letter contains no Oirishness whatsoever, being in a sort of comedy cockney, I rest my case.

I don't know what your position is regarding whether Jack sent the Lusk letter or not. I strongly believe not, but if the same author wrote both, in totally different "accents", he could hardly have expected them to be believed could he.

Regards.

Paul

[Sam Flynn]

Whil and kidne Irish? Not in a million years.

I thought I'd found copious enough examples of "presarved/prasarved" being used in unambiguously Irish dialogues to suggest otherwise, Paul. Then again, there's always the "it doesn't look like 'prasarved' anyhow" counterargument which, I think, you've already suggested. That notwithstanding (though it always looked like "prasarved" to me), we have "mishter" and "Sor" as well. (On the latter point, and honestly without prejudice, I'm still not 100% convinced that it says "Sir".)

As to "whil", "knif" and "kidne" - a lot of dialectical writing in literature is made up to some extent, to give the impression of an accent as the writer sees fit. As there's no absolute standard for "stage Irish" writing, I don't see whi dhoze parthickolor woardhs wirren't mint to sownd Oirish annywhey.

[Chris G.]

I thought I'd provided copious examples of "presarved/prasarved" being used in unambiguously Irish dialogues to suggest otherwise, Paul. Then again, there's always the "it doesn't look like 'prasarved' anyhow" counterargument which, I think, you've already suggested. That notwithstanding (though it always looked like "prasarved" to me), we have "mishter" and "Sor" as well. (On the latter point, and honestly without prejudice, I'm still not 100% convinced that it says "Sir".)

A lot of dialectical writing in literature is made up to some extent anyway, to give the impression of an accent as the writer sees fit. On that basis, and as there's no absolute standard for "stage Irish" writing, I don't see whi thoss woardhs wirren't mint to sownd Oirish annie-way.

Hello Sam and Paul B

It's also true to say that dialect comedy was much more in vogue back then when people didn't care about stereotyping the way we do in our more politically correct times. So it was usual and common to lampoon various ethnic groups in the music halls and in print, which you wouldn't get today.

Paul, I do think someone was having fun writing these two letters. Whether either missive or both of the letters are from the killer is another question yet again, but in any case I think the letter writer in both instances was striking a pose and adopting an idiom they did not generally write in.

Have a look at this:

'It has been suggested by at least one modern scholar of the case that the "From Hell" letter may actually have been hoaxed by members of the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee as a publicity stunt, and that [committee member and actor] Charles Reeves may have been the one behind it. The fact that it was written in an apparent "stage-Irish" is used to suggest a connection with Reeves, who as an actor would presumably have some familiarity with accents. It is also theorized that the Emily Marsh incident - in which she was asked by a man with an "Irish accent" for George Lusk's address - may have been staged by Charles Reeves, again, using his talents as an actor. The Marsh family business was at 218 Jubilee Street, Mile End Road, presumably very close to the Reeves residence. This is all just speculation, however, and no evidence exists to suggest that Charles played any nefarious roles whilst a member of the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee.'

Charles Reeves (a.k.a. Samuel Isaacs)

All the best

Chris

[Stephen Leece]

Not so, I've done great satires of Northen English and Scots people, based on dialect, stereotype etc. In fact I fell out with some friends only a matter of weeks ago for doing a satire on the death of Bobby Robson complete with written Geordie dialect.
There's an adult comic here called Viz, whose entire raison d'etre is to poke fun at Geordie customs, culture and dialect. Incidentally they have a recurring character called 'Cockney Wanker' who speaks in ludicrous rhyming slang, e.g "Shirl, answer the Roger Moore my love."
Blind acceptance of political correctness is a purely American invention and American phenomena, but that's because it's a far more sensitive, litigious society than the UK.
I read a great letter from Norman Stone to Margaret Thatcher the other day. Thatcher was panicking when the Wall came down that a united Germany would be too strong and too aggressive. Stone wrote to her saying, "East Germany is a collection of Liverpools in a tatty cardboard box wrapped up in a red ribbon with a note saying 'From Russia With Love.'"
A comment that simultaneously pokes fun at Liverpool, The collapsing Soviet Union, the DDR, the Federal Republic, the Cold War and spies ie it plays on a multitude of stereotypes.
There's a good joke about Ireland declaring war on Russia and backing out at the last minute, punchline is "Beggorah! We haven't got enough room for all yer fecking prisoners to be sure."
If you spend an entire day or night (or both if you can handle it) in any British pub right now, you will hear jokes about Irish, Americans, Muslims, Asians whatever the current 'stupid-group' is, complete with accompanying stereotypical accents. Just because this material does not appear on Saturday Night Live, does not mean that it doesn't exist anymore and that people no longer find it funny.

[Chris G.]

Okay, fair enough, Stephen. And thinking about it, Monty Python had fun poking fun at Aussies named "Bruce" with bobbly hats etc.

I am thinking though more of humor that pokes fun at ethnic minorities such as Moslems and Jews which I would think would be a no-no today in the UK, am I right? So perhaps your statement is not quite so broadstroke?

Chris

[Stephen Leece]

Au contraire, I can give you a bevvy of Islamic jokes- I hear them every night in the pub, but I won't repeat them for two reasons, 1. I find them inaccurate, but then I know more than most about Islam/ 'War on Terror' and 2. I know Muslim friends of mine follow me on this site.
Do you know the joke about the Hindu hot dog vendor? A guy approaches him and says, "Make me one with everything."
He hands over ten bucks and receives no change. When he asks about this, the vendor responds with, "Change comes from within."
That's the cleanest religious joke I am willing to repeat, because it is genuinelly funny without being offensive.

[Stephen Leece]

Actually there are acouple I can repeat. Islamic suicide bombers, courtesy of Billy Connolly. The monologue went roughly something like this:

"Suicide bombers? What kind of an idea is that? I'd love to meet the instructor: 'Right lads I'm only going to show you this once.'
How can you benefit from 72 virgins when you're flying mince? The good thing is everytime there's a bang the world is a wanker short."

I heard this one years ago in a Glasgow pub. There's a Rabbi walking down the Shankhill Road in Belfast. A group of guys in balaclavas jump out at him. "Are you Catholic or Protestant?"
The fellow says, "Neither I'm Jewish."
The gang look at each other then look back at him and say, "So are you a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew?"

You can poke fun at religious minorities here, and get away with it, but there is a fine line between witty clever satire, and out and out abuse. The stuff you hear on TV is witty, most of what you hear in the pubs is out and out ignorant abuse.
I stopped going to one pub because I was fed up hearing all these lame jokes about Islam that weren't even true, and as the resident Islam expert I was always invited to confirm the prejudices of these obnoxious jokes.

Here's Connolly anyeway for what it's worth:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwooM4yhiiY

[Stephen Leece]

Getting back on topic though I can do a great Irish Leprachaun accent and the From Hell letter fits it beautifully.

[Chris G.]

Hi Stephen

I also remember Billy Connolly was in trouble for making fun of the British contractor who was beheaded. There is such a thing as crossing of the line and taboo topics and taste even in the UK so I would still say it isn't exactly "anything goes."

Chris