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  • Were They Watching Kosminski ?

    Hi Could anybody throw some light on this news article found in the

    "Daily News 18th October 1888" ? You views would be most appreciated..
    Pat....
    Attached Files

  • #2
    Hi Pat


    It doesn't seem to be Aaron - I can't imagine him living with any woman other than a family member.

    Comment


    • #3
      Could be David Cohen.

      Comment


      • #4
        -
        I can't imagine him living with any woman other than a family member.
        Exactly ! could this woman have been Woolfes wife? or a family member?

        Did they throw him out to live in doss houses but he still came home for meals etc. Hence why they moved after the double event ?

        Comment


        • #5
          When I looked at Cavendish's files he did have an appointment with the Jewish womens group of that area...Just cant remember the date

          Comment


          • #6
            Somewhere here we have a news clipping about an Aaron Kosminski who was fined by the court for having an un-muzzled dog. Whoever was this Kosminski he was apparently sane and capable enough of having a dog and he was merely fined, not remanded as a lunatic.

            The Aaron Kosminski of the "solitary vices" we are told had been too ill for a number of years to attempt work of any kind. That does not sound like the sort of fellow who would have been living with a woman, or in charge of a dog. Of course he could have had periods of lucidity when he funtioned better than at other times. (Personally, I do not believe Kosminski the suspect was Aaron Kosminski the lunatic. No part of his known record leads me to think he was JtR though I can understand why "solitary vices" would have led to him being profiled that way.)

            The article beginning this thread gives some distances from Berner Street. We know police did watch someone(s). A good dissertation on this is Scott Nelson's "Butcher's Row Suspect" available on Casebook. Would anything in that support what is in the article?

            Another thought is that--I think, though I am bad at London geography--the Lipski family rooming house would fit the distance given. Some others as well as me have wondered from time to time if this had anything to do with "Lipski"--possibly--being called out. (I have also pondered whether the JtR series had anything to do with Israel Lipski since the JtR murders began almost exactly a year after Lipski was executed in 1887. Could we connect Kosminskis with Lipskis? Israel Lipski was apparently a Russian Jew who adopted the name Lipski from his friends and landlords the--I think-- Polish Lipskis. That was the actual name of the landlord and his family.)
            The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi ! There is another quote by Anderson in John Malcolm's "The Whitechapel Murders Of 1888 - Another Dead End":

              "He was a quiet and harmless individual in the ordinary way, but when the paroxysms came upon him his ferocity knew no bounds"

              And, the same book (the dog incident), a newspaper described Aaron Kosminski as " A Thoughtful Gentleman".

              Sagar described the Butchers Row suspect as "partly insane" and "after a time his friends thought it advisable to have him removed to a private asylum" (March 1889?)

              People often think that Aaron Kozminski´s condition 1890/91 was the same in 1888/89. Between March 1889 and February 1891 passed two years. Two years in which he, as an in&out patient, possibly not worked. Pat wrote, his brother Isaac quit the Freemason in March 1889, the other brother, Woolf, already moved from Providence Street/ Berner Street after the Double Event.

              I think it is possible that this "quiet and harmless individual" was able to live with a woman (sister, friends, shop keeper) in/until August/September/Oktober 1888. If he lived with a partner then certainly not for long, maybe some weeks or months.

              Comment


              • #8
                I think it might be a reference to the "Batty Street lodger".

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Paul View Post
                  I think it might be a reference to the "Batty Street lodger".



                  Indeed it could be Paul, the timing is about right. However it could be something entirely seperate.
                  there is also the possibility that it refers to both the Lodger incident and other info.


                  its like so much, tantilising, but missing clear definition.



                  it is however a nice find




                  SteveI

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Steve Blomer View Post
                    Indeed it could be Paul, the timing is about right. However it could be something entirely seperate.
                    there is also the possibility that it refers to both the Lodger incident and other info.

                    its like so much, tantilising, but missing clear definition.

                    it is however a nice find

                    SteveI

                    It was quite widely reported, but - unless it refers to the Batty Street - it doesn't appear to have been followed up.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Paul View Post
                      It was quite widely reported, but - unless it refers to the Batty Street - it doesn't appear to have been followed up.

                      It very probably does refer to Batty Street, i would think




                      Steve

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        It very probably does refer to Batty Street, I would think
                        Theory:

                        The date of the article was 18th October 1888 not long after the Double Event. The article said "he lived with her some time ago" and that there was other incriminating evidence. I think that the other incriminating evidence was Mrs Kuers find. Plus what local residents had reported.


                        If he was living at home he would have Betsy doing his washing I would have thought ? It could be that he lived in lodgings and possibly worked a bit (unless the family clubbed together and paid for a room) and he deteriorated as he was living alone.


                        I have a feeling that it was Betsy that talked to either police or Anderson (via Cavendish) and that it was Betsy that he later attacked. It was Betsy's brother Jacob that took him to be declared insane in 1891.

                        I think they probably tried to help him as much as they could but he was getting ill..I would have thought the Jewish Board of Governors would have been involved.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi Pat!

                          I wonder whether it might be possible that Aaron Kozminski suffered from a serious injury after the double event, caused by his own knife (the apron found in Goulston Street). Maybe his family and friends protected him while Betsy talked to the police. Quite possible that the police watched an East End infirmary and Mrs. Kuer´s house. "The man who returned", if it was Isaac Abrahams, the brother of the East End patient Aaron Kozminski, the police would have been surprised. Well, theory as you say.

                          Aftonbladet (Sweden), October 26th, 1888

                          “The murderer of Whitechapel has as yet managed to avoid detection. It is said that the prime suspect is now a foreigner who was living not far from Berner St when the murders took place. He has been reported to the police by a woman who he has been living with and is at present under close surveillance”.

                          Before the clipping from the Daily News, 18 October 1888 and the Aftonbladet from 26 October 1888:

                          The Star, 12 October, 1888

                          "A Suspicious Infirmary Patient.

                          A report was current late last night that the police suspect a man who is at present a patient in an East-end infirmary. He has been admitted since the commission of the last murder. Owing to his suspicious behavior their attention was directed to him. Detectives are making inquiries, and he is kept under surveillance."

                          Sheffield Evening Telegraph 12 October, 1888

                          "... The police now have under close observation in connection with the Whitechapel murder a man now inmate of the East End infirmary who was admitted since the murder under suspicious circumstances."

                          Hampshire Advertiser, 13 October, 1888

                          "A report was current late last night that the police have good reasons to suspect a man who is at present a patient in an East End Infirmary. He was admitted since the commission of the last murder, and owing to his suspicious behaviour and other circumstances the attention of the authorities was directed to him. Detectives are making inquiries relative to his actions before being admitted to the infirmary, and he is kept under constant and close surveillance."

                          Echo, 15 October 1888

                          "The police are, writes a Correspondent this morning, watching with great anxiety a house in the East end, which, it is believed, was the actual lodging made use of by someone connected with the East end murders. From various statements made by the neighbours, the landlady had a lodger, who, since the Sunday morning of the murder, has been missing. It appears, according to the statements made by the landlady to her neighbours, her lodger returned home early on the Sunday morning, and she was disturbed by his ,moving about. She rose very early, and noticed her lodger had changed some of his clothes. He told her he was going away for a little time, and he asked her to wash the shirt he had taken off, and get it ready for him by the time he came back. When she took the shirt she was astonished to find the wristbands and part of the sleeves completely saturated with wet blood. Acting on the advice of some of her neighbours, she gave information to the police and showed them the shirt. They then took possession of it, and obtained from her a full description of the lodger. A reporter visited the house early this morning. He had a conversation with the landlady, a German, who appeared very reticent. She, however, stated that a detective and two police officers had been in the house ever since information was given."

                          From the Daily News, 18 October

                          "... The accused is himself aware, it is believed, of the suspicions entertained against him. With regard to the statements current as to finding a blood-stained shirt at a lodging-house in Whitechapel, it appears the story is founded on some matters which occurred more than a fortnight ago. A man, apparently a foreigner, visited the house of a German laundress, at 22, Batty-street, and left four shirts, tied in a bundle, to be washed. The bundle was not opened at the time, but when the shirts were afterwards taken out one was found considerably blood-stained. The woman communicated with the police, who placed the house under observation, detectives at the same time being lodged there to arrest the man should he return. This he did last Saturday, and was taken to the Leman-street Police-station, where he was questioned, and within an hour or two released, his statement being proved correct”.

                          Last Saturday, the 13 October 1888?

                          Echo, 18 October 1888

                          "The laundress at 22, Batty-street, where a German left a blood-stained shirt, is Mrs. Kuer, also a German. The man, who was arrested, as already stated, and liberated, explained the blood-stains by the fact that he was with a friend who was cutting corn, when the knife slipped and inflicted a wound, when the injured man stanched the cut by using the sleeves of his companion's shirt. There were, however, extensive stains upon the front of it as well, and this the man asserts was done by the blood spurting on to it. Mrs. Kuer denies that she gave information to the police, who were told of the circumstances by a neighbour. Mrs. Kuer says the man had occasionally called with a shirt to be washed. She feels certain she says that the man is entirely innocent of any such offence as was at first suggested by the police. Inspector Reid, Inspector Helson, and other detective officers are pursuing their investigation."

                          Manitoba Daily Free Press
                          Winnipeg, Canada
                          8 March 1894

                          "Is He The Ripper?
                          A remarkable statement concerning the perpetrator of the Whitechapel murders has been made by an inspector of the criminal investigation department. He was, it appears, on duty near Mitre Court (sic) and the scene of the other murders throughout the time in which they were effected. The officer set himself to find out the criminal, and during the prosecution of his inquiries became possessed of an Oriental knife of a curious pattern of blade. Some time later a man who manifested homicidal mania was arrested on a minor charge, and in him the officer considered that he had found the perpetrator of the Whitechapel crimes. At first the man was placed in confinement near London; later on the criminal was removed to Dartmore (sic), where he went completely mad. All his conversation is about Whitechapel and about the women who were so mysteriously done to death within its precincts. Prior to this, however, the officer from whom this statement now emanates had made his report to his superiors. He had placed the whole of his information before them, and received a bonus for his pains."

                          March 1894 when Macnaghten wrote the memorandum. Macnaghten mentioned a City PC. "Confinement near London" could mean Macnaghten´s lunatic asylum. Dartmore = Colney Hatch? "Minor charge" is for Betsy or Matilda that he later attacked?


                          This Winnipeg statement and the memoradum, March 1894, is there a link to Aaron Kozminski´s transfer to Leavesden in April 1894 and his "death"?

                          Karsten.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Many thanks for that Karsten. I agree that if it was Aaron he went somewhere after October (If it was him). My thoughts like yours are that he was sent away somewhere, I have just been going through Mile End records for that time but cant see anyone known.

                            Out of interest when they said about the only person who saw him did they say it was a man?
                            I think if he went away he could have been

                            a) working away for a few weeks
                            b) visiting family or friends or
                            c) in a rest home or hospital.


                            He could have gone to the Knights Hill, Norwood Surrey, the Jewish place where Piser was sent or a private bed in a hospital. The trouble is if The Jewish Board of Guardians placed him it would be difficult to see records.

                            If you read the following they would have visited him in the Asylum. I wonder if there is a visitors book for Leavesden Asylum or Colney Hatch?

                            Pat.....
                            Attached Files

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Karsten Giese View Post


                              Aftonbladet (Sweden), October 26th, 1888

                              “The murderer of Whitechapel has as yet managed to avoid detection. It is said that the prime suspect is now a foreigner who was living not far from Berner St when the murders took place. He has been reported to the police by a woman who he has been living with and is at present under close surveillance”.

                              Hi Karsten.

                              If these reports concern the same individual, and in 1894 he was believed to be "the perpetrator of the Whitechapel murders". Then how does the Millers Court murder figure into this theory if, as above, he "is at present under close surveillance", just two weeks prior?
                              Regards, Jon S.
                              "
                              The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                              " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                              Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

                              Comment

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