Was Catherine Eddowes Menstruating?

[Livia Trivia]

The odds are stacked against her not being in menopause. You will need to get around the statistics to argue that. Anything is possible, but it's not the most likely scenario. Go back a few pages and take a look at the chart Debs provided. 68.4% of the women Eddowes' age - who had access to health care providers!!!! - were not menstruating. Factor in the sexually transmitted diseases, the emaciation, the malnourishment, living on the streets, the alcohol addiction.....

You tell me then what the odds were and how you derived them.

"Urine is reduced in quantity, is of dark, smoky or bloody color, and has higher levels of albumin (albuminuria).

"

Who the heck knows what it was after several washes?

The sample used in the study Debs quoted was comprised of
58 women. Hardly representative, and as every woman knows,
each woman's cycle is unique to her, even in the case
of sisters and mothers/daughters.

There's no evidence that Eddowes had VD.

Eddowes may have been undernourished, but she was
far from emaciated, as evidenced by the fat and muscle
tone in her arms and legs, rib cage, etc. Emaciated is
concentration camp inmates, Biafrans during the famine,
and the severely anorexic. She'd just spent the previous
month working in the hop fields, from about 6 in the morning
until about 5 at night (See "Of Human Bondage", Somerset
Maugham, p. 625, Google books, free) and then walked
37 miles to return to London. She was tiny, there's no
arguing that, but I think she was also tough as old boots.

According to her landlord, Eddowes lived at Flower and
Dean Street since 1881 and prior to that she can be
found on the 1851, 61, 71, and 81 censuses living indoors.

According to those who knew her:

Frederick Wilkinson, deputy at Cooney's, says Catherine
"was not often in drink and was a very jolly woman, often
singing." She was generally in the lodging house for the
night between 9 and 10 PM. He says she wasn't in the
habit of walking the streets and he had never heard of
or seen her being intimate with anyone other than Kelly.
Kelly himself claimed no knowledge of her ever walking
the streets. He says that she sometimes drank to excess
but wasn't in the habit. Another sister, Eliza Gold, said
that Catherine was of sober habits.

I realize these people had a vested interest in making
these statements (Wilkinson protecting the reputation of
Cooney's, Kelly and Gold protecting Eddowes' name and
reputation and their own), but the fact that her liver was
found at autopsy to be healthy, tends to confirm what
they had to say about her drinking. There's no doubt that
she was off her face on the night she was killed, but that
does not signify that she suffered from "alcohol addiction"
by any means. Even if she was a "binge drinker" you'd
expect some fatty degeneration or cirrohsis of her liver,
and apparently there was none.

It is my opinion, that she was still capable of menstruation
at the time of her death at 46 years, 4.5 months, otherwise
she'd have no need of carrying a dozen rags around. These
wouldn't have been used for other sanitary purposes such
as urination or defecation, as she'd have been forced into
a cycle of constantly washing them. It's more likely that
she used some sort of scrap paper which was disposed of
after use. I don't believe she was menstruating at the
time of her death, as it is not mentioned in the autopsy
report and that area of her body was examined and it
was noted that there were no signs of recent connection.

My opinion, for what it's worth.

[Paul]

The sample used in the study Debs quoted was comprised of
58 women. Hardly representative, and as every woman knows,
each woman's cycle is unique to her, even in the case
of sisters and mothers/daughters.

There's no evidence that Eddowes had VD.

Eddowes may have been undernourished, but she was
far from emaciated, as evidenced by the fat and muscle
tone in her arms and legs, rib cage, etc. Emaciated is
concentration camp inmates, Biafrans during the famine,
and the severely anorexic. She'd just spent the previous
month working in the hop fields, from about 6 in the morning
until about 5 at night (See "Of Human Bondage", Somerset
Maugham, p. 625, Google books, free) and then walked
37 miles to return to London. She was tiny, there's no
arguing that, but I think she was also tough as old boots.

According to her landlord, Eddowes lived at Flower and
Dean Street since 1881 and prior to that she can be
found on the 1851, 61, 71, and 81 censuses living indoors.

According to those who knew her:

Frederick Wilkinson, deputy at Cooney's, says Catherine
"was not often in drink and was a very jolly woman, often
singing." She was generally in the lodging house for the
night between 9 and 10 PM. He says she wasn't in the
habit of walking the streets and he had never heard of
or seen her being intimate with anyone other than Kelly.
Kelly himself claimed no knowledge of her ever walking
the streets. He says that she sometimes drank to excess
but wasn't in the habit. Another sister, Eliza Gold, said
that Catherine was of sober habits.

I realize these people had a vested interest in making
these statements (Wilkinson protecting the reputation of
Cooney's, Kelly and Gold protecting Eddowes' name and
reputation and their own), but the fact that her liver was
found at autopsy to be healthy, tends to confirm what
they had to say about her drinking. There's no doubt that
she was off her face on the night she was killed, but that
does not signify that she suffered from "alcohol addiction"
by any means. Even if she was a "binge drinker" you'd
expect some fatty degeneration or cirrohsis of her liver,
and apparently there was none.

It is my opinion, that she was still capable of menstruation
at the time of her death at 46 years, 4.5 months, otherwise
she'd have no need of carrying a dozen rags around. These
wouldn't have been used for other sanitary purposes such
as urination or defecation, as she'd have been forced into
a cycle of constantly washing them. It's more likely that
she used some sort of scrap paper which was disposed of
after use. I don't believe she was menstruating at the
time of her death, as it is not mentioned in the autopsy
report and that area of her body was examined and it
was noted that there were no signs of recent connection.

My opinion, for what it's worth.

A very quick observation, but she hadn't been working long hours in the fields because the bad weather had ruined the crops that year and she and Kelly had found little or no work. And people used to walk considerable distances in those days, so the walk from London to Kent wasn't really very excessive. I appreciate that to have walked that distance at all shows stamina, but it's not far off what she'd have been used to.

[Livia Trivia]

Thanks for that, Paul. I wasn't aware that the
crop had been ruined that year. But the entire
month couldn't have been a wash, as her skin
is described as "bronzed" in the autopsy notes.

[Debra Arif]

The sample used in the study Debs quoted was comprised of
58 women. Hardly representative, and as every woman knows,
each woman's cycle is unique to her, even in the case
of sisters and mothers/daughters.

There's no evidence that Eddowes had VD.

Eddowes may have been undernourished, but she was
far from emaciated, as evidenced by the fat and muscle
tone in her arms and legs, rib cage, etc. Emaciated is
concentration camp inmates, Biafrans during the famine,
and the severely anorexic. She'd just spent the previous
month working in the hop fields, from about 6 in the morning
until about 5 at night (See "Of Human Bondage", Somerset
Maugham, p. 625, Google books, free) and then walked
37 miles to return to London. She was tiny, there's no
arguing that, but I think she was also tough as old boots.

According to her landlord, Eddowes lived at Flower and
Dean Street since 1881 and prior to that she can be
found on the 1851, 61, 71, and 81 censuses living indoors.

According to those who knew her:

Frederick Wilkinson, deputy at Cooney's, says Catherine
"was not often in drink and was a very jolly woman, often
singing." She was generally in the lodging house for the
night between 9 and 10 PM. He says she wasn't in the
habit of walking the streets and he had never heard of
or seen her being intimate with anyone other than Kelly.
Kelly himself claimed no knowledge of her ever walking
the streets. He says that she sometimes drank to excess
but wasn't in the habit. Another sister, Eliza Gold, said
that Catherine was of sober habits.

I realize these people had a vested interest in making
these statements (Wilkinson protecting the reputation of
Cooney's, Kelly and Gold protecting Eddowes' name and
reputation and their own), but the fact that her liver was
found at autopsy to be healthy, tends to confirm what
they had to say about her drinking. There's no doubt that
she was off her face on the night she was killed, but that
does not signify that she suffered from "alcohol addiction"
by any means. Even if she was a "binge drinker" you'd
expect some fatty degeneration or cirrohsis of her liver,
and apparently there was none.

It is my opinion, that she was still capable of menstruation
at the time of her death at 46 years, 4.5 months, otherwise
she'd have no need of carrying a dozen rags around. These
wouldn't have been used for other sanitary purposes such
as urination or defecation, as she'd have been forced into
a cycle of constantly washing them. It's more likely that
she used some sort of scrap paper which was disposed of
after use. I don't believe she was menstruating at the
time of her death, as it is not mentioned in the autopsy
report and that area of her body was examined and it
was noted that there were no signs of recent connection.

My opinion, for what it's worth.

Good post Liv. It reflects my thoughts and concerns about the various descriptions of Eddowes being used too.

[Paul]

Thanks for that, Paul. I wasn't aware that the
crop had been ruined that year. But the entire
month couldn't have been a wash, as her skin
is described as "bronzed" in the autopsy notes.

Basically, it was. As had most of the year. A very bad year weatherwise altogether, and the crop failure was a disaster. There was something of an Indian summer though, which may have accounted for the bronzed skin.

[Chris G.]

Hi Paul and Livia

Catherine Eddowes' skin color could have been caused by her having nephritis, which is characterized I believe by a pale yellow skin color.

Chris

[Jeff Leahy]

http://people.csail.mit.edu/sfelshin.../glossary.html

I'm still doing some searching on Aprons. It would appear that Bib aprons are largely from the continent and UK and USA aprons were more likely to be waiste affairs..

I dont see why an apron has to have two strings. Its quite possible to make a single string apron with a fasten button or loop. But I'm happy to take on board anyone who thinks this impossible with a credible argument against it?

But as yet I can find No designs that give a Definitive answer for the period

I will keep searching

Yours Jeff

PS I'd be most interrested if anyone has an opinion on Trevor's claim that Eddow's was stabbed through her skirts, I can find no reference to this?

[Livia Trivia]

Buttons or loops: not impossible, but certainly
impractical. With two pieces of fabric attached
at the top of the apron at the waist, you can
adjust for size, whether you lose or gain weight,
become pregnant and give birth, etc.

It's my guess that most aprons were home made,
as it would only take a bit of fabric, maybe a tape
measure or a good eye for lengths and widths,
needle, thread and thimble and rudimentary sewing
skills. In fact, back in the days when home economics
was still taught in grade school, our first sewing project
was to make a gingham apron, hand stitched.

[Jeff Leahy]

Buttons or loops: not impossible, but certainly
impractical. With two pieces of fabric attached
at the top of the apron at the waist, you can
adjust for size, whether you lose or gain weight,
become pregnant and give birth, etc.

It's my guess that most aprons were home made,
as it would only take a bit of fabric, maybe a tape
measure or a good eye for lengths and widths,
needle, thread and thimble and rudimentary sewing
skills. In fact, back in the days when home economics
was still taught in grade school, our first sewing project
was to make a gingham apron, hand stitched.

Hi Livia

I get that they were probably hand made..Eddows had sewing equipment

But could she have made an apron with one string that attached to a button or loop on the opposite side

ie could there have been one string? or must there have been two strings?

That is the question

YOurs jeffx

[Howard Brown]

Livia:
Thanks for the posts....much appreciated

[Livia Trivia]

How: You're welcome.

Jeff: Could she? Yes.
Would she? Doubt it.
I've never seen an apron
such as you've described and
I grew up with women that
wore them all the time.

[SirRobertAnderson]

Blood clots in the bladder

Warning: some graphic medical terms below.

Hi Paul and Livia

Catherine Eddowes' skin color could have been caused by her having nephritis, which is characterized I believe by a pale yellow skin color.

Chris

Yes, it might be a symptom of nephritis.

I meet with an urologist in NYC this afternoon; I sent Livia a picture of the sign leading to the office as "proof". You'll have to take my word on this. There is a professional relationship between the urologist and my company, but not one that would influence his opinion. Just means I could get 20 minutes of his time without paying $300.....

What he had to say rocked my world - depends on how fixed your views are on a 46 year old menstruating AND the Lusk Letter.

Anyhow.....nephritis.

This is what he had to say about blood in the urine associated with nephritis. Dr. S. said that there are common misconceptions about what blood in the urine looks like, and that nephritis presents some unusual circumstances. Blood seeps into the bladder from the kidneys where it coagulates and clots, and that as the bladder fills creating the need to urinate, the clumps and clots come out in the urine stream episodically.

Dr. S. told me it is the reason some sufferers don't realize it's blood as they expect a fluid.

Different sufferers present a wide spectrum of clumps and clots, with some being microscopic. Others are quite large.

Bottom line: IF Eddowes had nephritis it is quite possible (he said common) for her condition to cause her to urinate and pass small blood clots. Dr. S. said there would be blood "chunks" around the opening of her urethra at times.

I realize that this may not be a popular point of view but those rags, unlikely as they were to be used for menstruation*, may very well have been stained from Eddowes' cleaning herself after urinating.

And if this was the case, it potentially tells us something about the Lusk Letter - the one I have always felt might have been legit, if any of them were.

Food for thought.

*I'd be happy to use bigger samples of data - I used what Debs sent me. If you can find broad based statistics on women entering menopause in 1888 let me know.

[Tom_Wescott]

I meet with an urologist in NYC this afternoon; I sent Livia a picture of the sign leading to the office as "proof". You'll have to take my word on this. There is a professional relationship between the urologist and my company, but not one that would influence his opinion.

Don't worry, I'm sure no one will accuse you of "taking the piss."

I don't see anything implausible in what you suggest. Unfortunately, there's a million and one ways blood would be expected to get on someone's rags, particularly if she'd just been hopping. I'd expect a few cuts and scrapes. It's a shame we don't have sufficient data from the time to narrow the options down a little. The yellow skin is very intriguing though.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

How: You're welcome.

Jeff: Could she? Yes.
Would she? Doubt it.
I've never seen an apron
such as you've described and
I grew up with women that
wore them all the time.

THis is true. I've only ever seen an apron worn with two stings, but then I'm assuming we are talking about post world war Two. Obviously my Nan was at queen Victoria's funeral but she was a child..

So while I cant currently establish a single string theory I dont see why its not possible. Interesting Dr Brown desribes lose buttons lying in blood at the scene..

Presumably Eddows waste was tiny so a single string of say 14'' would have done the job..

What can be said however is Dr Browns report is rather thorough compared to earlier reports. Given his wording in other areas of the report if part of teh apron had of been missing as Trevor suggests it seems most improbable that he would have failed to mention it?

However if you read the complete wording and taking into account the evidence supplied by Mr B it seems highly improbable we are talking about more than two portions.

Yours Jeff

PS fascinating post Robert. I still dont think the Lusk kidney was Eddows but I will remain open minded to the possibility. As I said earlier in the thread we are largely only ever left with the balance of probability on most questions.

[Paul]

Chintz skirt, jagged cut 6 1/2 inches long from waistband, left side of front...Blood on bottom, back and front of skirt.

Brown linsey dress bodice, clean cut bottom of left side, 5 inches long from right to left.

Grey stuff petticoat, white waist band, cut 1 1/2 inches long, thereon in front. Edges blood stained. Blood stains on front at bottom of petticoat.

Green alpaca skirt, jagged cut 10 1/2 inches long in front of waistband downward, blood stained inside, front under cut.

Blue skirt, jagged cut 10 1/2 inches long through waistband, downward, blood stained, inside and outside back and front.

Dr Brown stated that "There was no blood on the front of the clothes."

The extant inquest report states:

Dr Frederick Gordon Brown: "My attention was called to the apron - It was the corner of the apron with a string attached. The blood spots were of recent origin - I have seen a portion of an apron produced by Dr Phillips and stated to have been found in Goulstone Street. It is impossible to say it is human blood. I fitted the piece of apron which had a new piece of material on it which had evidently sewn on to the piece I have. The seams of the borders of the two actually corresponded..."

As far as I can tell, the apron with the string attached was the piece found on Eddowes body.

“a portion of coarse white apron, which was found loosly hanging about the neck.” (The Times, 2 October 1888) and “She wore a pair or men's laced boots; and a piece of old white coarse apron and a piece of riband were tied loosely round the neck.” (The People, 7 October 1888) indicate that the apron was full length with a piece of riband going over the head and this may be what Frederick Gordon Browne meant by the "string". Alternatively, he may have been referring to the apron strings with which the apron was tied around the waist. Personally, I wouldn't attach much importance to the singular "string" and I certainly think it would probably be placing too much weight on it to build a case claiming that a large portion of apron had been torn away.