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  • Originally posted by Chris G. View Post
    Hi Paul and Livia

    Catherine Eddowes' skin color could have been caused by her having nephritis, which is characterized I believe by a pale yellow skin color.

    Chris
    Wouldn't Dr. brown have used a term other than 'bronzed' when describing Eddowes' arms and hands if he thought he was observing a discolouration of the skin through a kidney disease? Bronzed means suntanned, doesn't it? The arms and hands of someone who'd been outdoors a lot recently.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Paul View Post
      Chintz skirt, jagged cut 6 1/2 inches long from waistband, left side of front...Blood on bottom, back and front of skirt.

      Brown linsey dress bodice, clean cut bottom of left side, 5 inches long from right to left.

      Grey stuff petticoat, white waist band, cut 1 1/2 inches long, thereon in front. Edges blood stained
      . Blood stains on front at bottom of petticoat.

      Green alpaca skirt, jagged cut 10 1/2 inches long in front of waistband downward, blood stained inside, front under cut.

      Blue skirt, jagged cut 10 1/2 inches long through waistband, downward, blood stained, inside and outside back and front.


      Dr Brown stated that "There was no blood on the front of the clothes."

      The extant inquest report states:

      Dr Frederick Gordon Brown: "My attention was called to the apron - It was the corner of the apron with a string attached. The blood spots were of recent origin - I have seen a portion of an apron produced by Dr Phillips and stated to have been found in Goulstone Street. It is impossible to say it is human blood. I fitted the piece of apron which had a new piece of material on it which had evidently sewn on to the piece I have. The seams of the borders of the two actually corresponded..."

      As far as I can tell, the apron with the string attached was the piece found on Eddowes body.

      “a portion of coarse white apron, which was found loosly hanging about the neck.” (The Times, 2 October 1888) and “She wore a pair or men's laced boots; and a piece of old white coarse apron and a piece of riband were tied loosely round the neck.” (The People, 7 October 1888) indicate that
      the apron was full length with a piece of riband going over the head and this may be what Frederick Gordon Browne meant by the "string". Alternatively, he may have been referring to the apron strings with which the apron was tied around the waist. Personally, I wouldn't attach much importance to the singular "string" and I certainly think it would probably be placing too much weight on it to build a case claiming that a large portion of apron had been torn away.
      Hello Paul

      Firstly many thanks for taking the time to list the clothing cuts in full.

      Before responding in full I will take a little time to absorb the information, some terms like 'riband' are not familiar to me.

      Some of the information here also suggests a bib apron, which can have a single string (They are readily available) but this changes entirely how I envisioned the apron.

      I think your completely correct however Dr Browns listing and attension to detail in all areas would beggar belief that he did NOT mention part of the apron or one of the strings to be missing.

      This information is most useful

      Many thanks

      Jeff

      Comment


      • Originally posted by SirRobertAnderson View Post
        At the risk of being tiresome in the service of of the truth, I don't think it's been proven that these rags were used for menstrual purposes. (Mercifully we agree that if they were, they weren't needed that night.)
        No, Sir Bob, I didn't suggest it had been proven - I admitted I was speculating. I just wondered if there was any point speculating further, given that Eddowes had presumably used rags of a very similar kind whenever she had last had a period, whether that was weeks, months or even years previously. Women are reluctant to part with their last means of sanitary protection until they can be confident they will never be needed again, and if that day had already come and gone for Eddowes, it seems that she kept hers for other possible uses. The alternative is that she did chuck out all her menstrual rags when her periods stopped, only to replace them with a dozen similar ones for some other purpose, which is possible of course, but doesn't seem likely, and I'm not sure where such speculation really gets us.

        Love,

        Caz
        X
        I wish I were two puppies then I could play together - Storm Petersen

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
          Wouldn't Dr. brown have used a term other than 'bronzed' when describing Eddowes' arms and hands if he thought he was observing a discolouration of the skin through a kidney disease? Bronzed means suntanned, doesn't it? The arms and hands of someone who'd been outdoors a lot recently.
          Hi Debs,
          My earlier point was that the hop crops had been destroyed and by John Kelly's own admission they had found little or no work and had to return to London, therefore we can't assess Eddowes health and stamina on the assumption that she had been out in the fields from dawn to dusk. The bronzing of her skin would no doubt have occurred on the walk from London to Kent and back again. I think it is very likely that Dr Brown would have used a different word if he had suspected the skin colour was caused by an illness.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Livia Trivia View Post
            It's my guess that most aprons were home made,
            as it would only take a bit of fabric, maybe a tape
            measure or a good eye for lengths and widths,
            needle, thread and thimble and rudimentary sewing
            skills. In fact, back in the days when home economics
            was still taught in grade school, our first sewing project
            was to make a gingham apron, hand stitched.
            Snap! Mine was red and white gingham and I was about nine years old. I hated needlework at that age and purposefully left the thing at home to get out of the lesson. It didn't work though - my teacher, Mrs. King, sent me home on my own to fetch it!

            Love,

            Caz
            X
            I wish I were two puppies then I could play together - Storm Petersen

            Comment


            • Yes, its often assumed that sunshine is the best source of tanning..

              Actually the best tan I ever got was working on Missle sites at Shoeburyness, Salt Air and wind gives an excellent tan...Jeff

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Paul View Post
                Hi Debs,
                My earlier point was that the hop crops had been destroyed and by John Kelly's own admission they had found little or no work and had to return to London, therefore we can't assess Eddowes health and stamina on the assumption that she had been out in the fields from dawn to dusk. The bronzing of her skin would no doubt have occurred on the walk from London to Kent and back again. I think it is very likely that Dr Brown would have used a different word if he had suspected the skin colour was caused by an illness.
                Yes I'll accept that. Thanks, Paul.

                Chris
                Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
                https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

                Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
                Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Paul View Post
                  Hi Debs,
                  My earlier point was that the hop crops had been destroyed and by John Kelly's own admission they had found little or no work and had to return to London, therefore we can't assess Eddowes health and stamina on the assumption that she had been out in the fields from dawn to dusk. The bronzing of her skin would no doubt have occurred on the walk from London to Kent and back again. I think it is very likely that Dr Brown would have used a different word if he had suspected the skin colour was caused by an illness.

                  Hi Paul-I'm a little confused, i don't think I ever said it was proof of her health or stamina. I merely suggested bronzed meant exactly what it suggested-suntanned due to being outdoors. Walking to and from Kent would have meant a long time outdoors. I was mainly querying why people were suddenly thinking it may have meant she had yellow skin caused by nephritis!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Jeff Leahy View Post
                    Yes, its often assumed that sunshine is the best source of tanning..

                    Actually the best tan I ever got was working on Missle sites at Shoeburyness, Salt Air and wind gives an excellent tan...Jeff
                    But Jeff, you are still in the suns rays even if you are walking or standing still, that is how you get tanned when outdoors!!
                    It's a misapprehension that you can be tanned by the wind-all that is happening on a windy day is that you don't feel the suns rays as the wind cools your skin.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                      Hi Paul-I'm a little confused, i don't think I ever said it was proof of her health or stamina. I merely suggested bronzed meant exactly what it suggested-suntanned due to being outdoors. Walking to and from Kent would have meant a long time outdoors. I was mainly querying why people were suddenly thinking it may have meant she had yellow skin caused by nephritis!
                      Hi Deb

                      I was merely bringing up nephritis as a possibility for her skin color but I readily accept that Paul's point that Dr. Brown's use of the word "bronzed" to describe her skin color means that it's more likely he meant it to apply to exposure to sun or the elements.

                      Best regards

                      Chris
                      Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
                      https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

                      Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
                      Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Chris G. View Post
                        Hi Deb

                        I was merely bringing up nephritis as a possibility for her skin color but I readily accept that Paul's point that Dr. Brown's use of the word "bronzed" to describe her skin color means that it's more likely he meant it to apply to exposure to sun or the elements.

                        Best regards

                        Chris
                        I'm really confused now. I thought it was me that mentioned Dr Brown specifically said bronzed!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Caroline Morris View Post
                          No, Sir Bob, I didn't suggest it had been proven - I admitted I was speculating. I just wondered if there was any point speculating further, given that Eddowes had presumably used rags of a very similar kind whenever she had last had a period, whether that was weeks, months or even years previously. Women are reluctant to part with their last means of sanitary protection until they can be confident they will never be needed again, and if that day had already come and gone for Eddowes, it seems that she kept hers for other possible uses. The alternative is that she did chuck out all her menstrual rags when her periods stopped, only to replace them with a dozen similar ones for some other purpose, which is possible of course, but doesn't seem likely, and I'm not sure where such speculation really gets us.

                          Love,

                          Caz
                          X
                          Caz, I couldn't agree more.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                            I'm really confused now. I thought it was me that mentioned Dr Brown specifically said bronzed!
                            Well, you might have, but Paul was replying to my point about nephritis perhaps causing the skin color. Obviously he replied to me irregardless of whomever first brought up the idea that the word "bronzed" was used by Dr Brown.

                            Best regards

                            Chris
                            Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
                            https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

                            Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
                            Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Chris G. View Post
                              Well, you might have, but Paul was replying to my point about nephritis perhaps causing the skin color. Obviously he replied to me irregardless of whomever first brought up the idea that the word "bronzed" was used by Dr Brown.

                              Best regards

                              Chris
                              And so was I in post #451 before Paul replied to me.
                              I've got the distinct feeling that my posts are invisible lately and this proves it. LOL

                              Comment


                              • NO. As I remarked in a thread at Casebook this morning, I just don't have the time to read through long long threads. Sorry that I didn't see that you made the same point.

                                Best regards

                                Chris
                                Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
                                https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

                                Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
                                Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

                                Comment

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