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Was Catherine Eddowes Menstruating?

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  • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
    I was mainly querying why people were suddenly thinking it may have meant she had yellow skin caused by nephritis!
    Well, Debs, the woman may very well have had nephritis, that's why! She'd have needed the rags for that condition. Having nephritis wouldn't have stopped her from tanning for that matter.

    And I assure you nephritis and menopause aren't my personal Lechmere. I don't argue for the sake of it.

    It would be sad for Ripperology if we don't consider a likely scenario - we can argue how likely, that's fine, that's why we talk - that has clear implications for the Lusk letter. Personally I think there was a 90% chance the poor woman was menopausal. Maybe I'm wrong. I was wrong to say it was impossible. Let's get more ample statistical sets if folks can find them.

    But "my" scenario explains the facts on the ground as well, if not better, than other scenarios advanced here. And having her use her rags to blot up after urinating doesn't open the door to Trevor's theories suddenly holding water.

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    • Originally posted by SirRobertAnderson View Post
      Well, Debs, the woman may very well have had nephritis, that's why! She'd have needed the rags for that condition. Having nephritis wouldn't have stopped her from tanning for that matter.

      And I assure you nephritis and menopause aren't my personal Lechmere. I don't argue for the sake of it.

      It would be sad for Ripperology if we don't consider a likely scenario - we can argue how likely, that's fine, that's why we talk - that has clear implications for the Lusk letter. Personally I think there was a 90% chance the poor woman was menopausal. Maybe I'm wrong. I was wrong to say it was impossible. Let's get more ample statistical sets if folks can find them.

      But "my" scenario explains the facts on the ground as well, if not better, than other scenarios advanced here. And having her use her rags to blot up after urinating doesn't open the door to Trevor's theories suddenly holding water.
      But bronzed means bronzed means suntanned was my point, Robert. A doctor described her as bronzed-he didn't say her skin was tinged yellow (or any medical term for that).

      We can consider other options but the most likely scenario to me personally is that the rags Eddowes was carrying were menstrual rags. Rags which have been known as 'rags' throughout history. She may have been menopausal-we just don't know and that is the point. We can analyse statistics forever but it won't tell us what Eddowes personal situation was. Plus you are also ignoring Caz's suggestion that she may just have kept the rags after menstruation and all us women posting seem to think the slight stains may have possibly been left behind on the rags after washing (however long since they were last used) and weren't necessary 'fresh'

      You are saying that Eddowes used these rags for wiping herself after the toilet-that is also what Trevor thinks the apron piece was perhaps used for if not menstrual catching blood.

      Comment


      • Not wishing to delve too deep into the mire that is this thread (excellent though it is), and forgive me if I'm being incredibly stupid here, but, as I understand it, Catherine had not long returned home to London from Hop-picking in Kent. Is anybody aware of the weather reports from that time? Maybe that could explain the so-called bronzed nature of here appearance. Perhaps she caught the sun there and was still sporting it at the time of her death.

        I do realise that according to testimonies of time the hop yield for that year was not particularly good, but that does not mean that the weather on certain days could not have been sunny enough to gain a tan.


        Kind regards,


        Tempus

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        • The main problem with this entire discussion is that the answer to the thread's initial question Was Catherine Eddowes Menstruating? is "most likely she was menopausal". Some posters are taking her possession of blood stained rags as proof of menstruation; they're not. If the probabilities were flipped around I would concede the point....but they are not.

          Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
          But bronzed means bronzed means suntanned was my point, Robert. A doctor described her as bronzed-he didn't say her skin was tinged yellow (or any medical term for that).
          I would hesitate to say definitively that 'bronzed' means tanned. The doctor could have just commented she was tanned in appearance....which she may well have been. But he didn't unfortunately. But bronze as a pigment is "a moderate yellowish to olive brown." Can someone with nephritis tan? I don't know. I would think so. If so that pigment color sounds reasonable to me. And if not, it still sounds plausible if it was meant that she was "moderately yellowish".


          Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
          You are saying that Eddowes used these rags for wiping herself after the toilet-that is also what Trevor thinks the apron piece was perhaps used for if not menstrual catching blood.
          Humor me for a moment.

          Let's ASSUME for the moment that the Lusk Letter was legit. And/or Eddowes had nephritis. What would she have used for personal hygiene?

          The rags.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by SirRobertAnderson View Post
            The main problem with this entire discussion is that the answer to the thread's initial question Was Catherine Eddowes Menstruating? is "most likely she was menopausal". Some posters are taking her possession of blood stained rags as proof of menstruation; they're not.
            And some people just aren't reading the posts correctly.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
              And some people just aren't reading the posts correctly.
              Fortunately not you and I; I worry about some of the others though....

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                Hi Paul-I'm a little confused, i don't think I ever said it was proof of her health or stamina. I merely suggested bronzed meant exactly what it suggested-suntanned due to being outdoors. Walking to and from Kent would have meant a long time outdoors. I was mainly querying why people were suddenly thinking it may have meant she had yellow skin caused by nephritis!
                Sorry, Debs. You asked whether Brown would have said if Eddowes' skin colour was due to illness, and I replied that in my opinion I thought he would. However, the skin colour emerged from Livia's claim that Eddowes had been working in the fields from dawn to dusk. She offered this as evidence that Eddowes' good health and stamina. I was simply pointing out that she hadn't been in the fields because the crop had been ruined and that the bronzing was probably done on the walk to and from Kent.

                I simply took the opportunity of one post to expand on and answer a question.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Paul View Post
                  She offered this as evidence that Eddowes' good health and stamina. I was simply pointing out that she hadn't been in the fields because the crop had been ruined and that the bronzing was probably done on the walk to and from Kent.
                  I have a hard time envisioning Eddowes' as the picture of health. It's an important point.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by SirRobertAnderson View Post
                    I have a hard time envisioning Eddowes' as the picture of health. It's an important point.
                    Yes but I would submit to you that a person in decrepit health probably would not have been able to walk from Kent.
                    Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
                    https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

                    Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
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                    • Originally posted by Chris G. View Post
                      Yes but I would submit to you that a person in decrepit health probably would not have been able to walk from Kent.
                      I agree with you. I'm not suggesting she was at death's door - just trying to gauge by how much we should adjust the menopause statistics to guessestimate the likelihood she was in that state.

                      I hope no one would argue she wasn't malnourished and alcoholic but I am never surprised on message boards anymore.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by SirRobertAnderson View Post
                        I hope no one would argue she wasn't malnourished and alcoholic but I am never surprised on message boards anymore.
                        Hello Robert,

                        Now you know as well as I do that whatever has already been decided as gospel in Ripperology cannot be shaken unless signed in triplicate by the inner sanctum of the powers that be..whoever they are....not that I care one hoot anyway..lol

                        Phil
                        from 1905...to 19.05..it was written in the stars

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Phil Carter View Post
                          Hello Robert,

                          Now you know as well as I do that whatever has already been decided as gospel in Ripperology cannot be shaken unless signed in triplicate by the inner sanctum of the powers that be..whoever they are....not that I care one hoot anyway..lol

                          Phil
                          Politics makes strange bedfellows.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by SirRobertAnderson View Post
                            Politics makes strange bedfellows.
                            Oh...so you've noticed the sweet smelling essence of politics and bedfellows within the genre!... Well I never...whatever next eh? LOL

                            Phil
                            from 1905...to 19.05..it was written in the stars

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Chris G. View Post
                              Yes but I would submit to you that a person in decrepit health probably would not have been able to walk from Kent.
                              Chris,

                              A question.

                              How, in your opinion, would it be possible for Eddowes to walk the distance she walked in one day BACK to London, given the state of her health? I mean, malnourished bodies lack energy. It takes a fair bit of energy to walk that distance in one day, no?

                              Phil
                              from 1905...to 19.05..it was written in the stars

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by SirRobertAnderson View Post

                                I would hesitate to say definitively that 'bronzed' means tanned. The doctor could have just commented she was tanned in appearance....which she may well have been. But he didn't unfortunately. But bronze as a pigment is "a moderate yellowish to olive brown." Can someone with nephritis tan? I don't know. I would think so. If so that pigment color sounds reasonable to me. And if not, it still sounds plausible if it was meant that she was "moderately yellowish".
                                It seems you are correct about the definition not exclusively meaning tanned. In LVP medical terms it is also used to described brown pigmentation in Addison's disease.

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