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Was Catherine Eddowes Menstruating?

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  • This was a good find, Liv. There is every statistic on menstruation, menopause and fertility you're ever likely to want to know, in it.

    The internet archive also had an 1882 revised edition when I checked closer last night:

    http://archive.org/stream/changeofli...ge/20/mode/2up

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    • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
      This was a good find, Liv. There is every statistic on menstruation, menopause and fertility you're ever likely to want to know, in it.

      The internet archive also had an 1882 revised edition when I checked closer last night:

      http://archive.org/stream/changeofli...ge/20/mode/2up


      Thanks Livia and Debra!

      The Super Bowl AND a treatise on Victorian menstruation in one day...my cup runneth over. (Psalm 23:5)

      This snippet is interesting. I'd love to see what Meissner had to say on the subject. I have a suspicion that since he's referring to either marrying early or 'addicted to prostitution' he's referring to the old canard that a lot of sex is bad for the female reproductive system.

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      • Looks like Meissner was Austrian as his textbook is in German and the sample cited was from Vienna.

        This from the BMJ is interesting.



        http://books.google.com/books?id=Kyp...uation&f=false

        One scenario I had not considered was Eddowes being menopausal but still having a light discharge as described below. Would also explain the rags but still debunk Marriott's theory.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Paul View Post
          Would blood clots in the urine have led to only one corner of the apron being wet with blood and the rest very lightly smeared?
          Hi Paul,

          It seems doubtful to me.

          By far the most likely scenario IMHO is that this blood came from fresh wounds inflicted by the killer on Eddowes - unless he cut himself accidentally and took the apron piece to help stop the bleeding as he fled the scene.

          Love,

          Caz
          X
          I wish I were two puppies then I could play together - Storm Petersen

          Comment


          • Originally posted by SirRobertAnderson View Post
            Looks like Meissner was Austrian as his textbook is in German and the sample cited was from Vienna.
            According to Wikipedia, Friedrich Ludwig Meissner (1796-1860), was a German obstetrician, gynecologist and pediatrician.

            Best regards

            Chris
            Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
            https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

            Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
            Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

            Comment


            • [QUOTE=SirRobertAnderson;189779]
              I would love to say your reasons are sound....but they fly in the face of probability. It's bad analysis. Maybe bad is too harsh but it's not the way things probably went down that night in 1888. It's not even a coin flip of 50-50 whether she was in menopause. You are arguing from personal experience, I'm arguing from probability. If the numbers were reversed, you'd have more of a point.
              Basically this thread comes down to women looking at the crime scene so to speak and saying "Hey, I know what those rags were for. I know where the blood came from. Been there, done that."[QUOTE]

              No need to shout, Sir Bob, that's Trevor's way of making himself heard.

              Maybe I should try shouting because you are not reading what I have been posting. I can only repeat that in my opinion the 'probability' is that Eddowes wasn't still menstruating by September 1888.

              However, I do have sound reasons for thinking her 12 rags were probably left over from her pre-menopausal days and being retained for other purposes, very possibly also connected with personal hygiene. I don't see how that would 'fly in the face of probability' - nor indeed why it matters. If you think it's more probable that she had discarded all her sanitary rags months or years previously and acquired a dozen similar items more recently, that's fine with me. We will still end up on the same hymn sheet regarding the unlikelihood of Eddowes using her apron for menstrual purposes, that night or any other night.

              All these things matter if we want to figure out the puzzle of the blood stained rags....
              I just don't see us resolving such a puzzle, or what it would really tell us if we did. Eddowes was a woman who had to carry all her bits and pieces around with her. She would not have kept those rags unless she had - or could imagine - some use for them. But we are never going to know if the blood stains a) indicate an old use she had for them, b) indicate a recent use, or c) only arrived courtesy of her killer.

              ...the gaolers probably would have given her fresh rags if she needed them for menstruation. They would have been found with her body I would imagine.
              But... she already had a dozen rags if she needed them for menstruation or for anything else. There was no obvious urine staining on them, and no evidence of current or very recent usage, or presumably that would have been noted.

              All I am trying to do is puzzle out an angle that has not - to my knowledge - ever been considered and which has distinct implications for the Lusk letter.
              I'm not sure why. According to the A-Z, it was the kidney that remained in Eddowes that showed definite signs of Bright's Disease, while the Lusk kidney appears to rely on one of Henry Smith's claims for its similar condition. So even if she would have needed those rags to deal with her Bright's symptoms, it wouldn't prove anything further about the condition of the Lusk kidney.

              Love,

              Caz
              X
              I wish I were two puppies then I could play together - Storm Petersen

              Comment


              • Originally posted by SirRobertAnderson View Post
                One scenario I had not considered was Eddowes being menopausal but still having a light discharge as described below. Would also explain the rags but still debunk Marriott's theory.
                I'm sure I described much the same thing at one point, but it probably got lost in all the indignation. Very few women are lucky enough to go from having nice regular periods to no flow at all in one fell swoop. It can take years to go right through the menopause and out the other side, and the menstrual flow can become lighter or heavier as it becomes irregular and eventually ceases for good. Hot flushes (or 'flashes' across the pond) can last for more than ten years after the last bleed.

                Love,

                Caz
                X
                I wish I were two puppies then I could play together - Storm Petersen

                Comment


                • Originally posted by SirRobertAnderson View Post

                  All I am trying to do is puzzle out an angle that has not - to my knowledge - ever been considered and which has distinct implications for the Lusk letter.

                  Originally posted by Caroline Morris View Post
                  I'm not sure why. According to the A-Z, it was the kidney that remained in Eddowes that showed definite signs of Bright's Disease, while the Lusk kidney appears to rely on one of Henry Smith's claims for its similar condition. So even if she would have needed those rags to deal with her Bright's symptoms, it wouldn't prove anything further about the condition of the Lusk kidney.

                  Love,

                  Caz
                  X
                  Of course, I think Bob is saying that if the Lusk kidney was from Eddowes, the letter was, by implication, from the killer, and the inscription on the wall also from the killer. Right, Bob?

                  Although I think you are right, Caz, that it was Sir Henry Smith who said the Lusk kidney came from Eddowes following similar claims made in some newspapers, although it doesn't seem that the doctors gave it as their opinion that the piece of kidney came from the murder victim.

                  Chris
                  Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
                  https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

                  Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
                  Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Caroline Morris View Post

                    No need to shout, Sir Bob, that's Trevor's way of making himself heard.
                    In all these years, have I ever shouted at you?

                    Originally posted by Caroline Morris View Post
                    Maybe I should try shouting because you are not reading what I have been posting. I can only repeat that in my opinion the 'probability' is that Eddowes wasn't still menstruating by September 1888.
                    There we go - same page in the hymnal. Some posters have said - in effect - "well although she was still having her period, the odds of her having her period on a given night means it's unlikely she would have needed her apron." That's what I originally took you to be saying.

                    Originally posted by Caroline Morris View Post
                    However, I do have sound reasons for thinking her 12 rags were probably left over from her pre-menopausal days and being retained for other purposes, very possibly also connected with personal hygiene. I don't see how that would 'fly in the face of probability' - nor indeed why it matters.

                    I just don't see us resolving such a puzzle, or what it would really tell us if we did.
                    I understand that Smith is regarded as unreliable and that may be true. I still think the nephritis angle is interesting as a possible cause of the bloodstains.

                    I have learned A LOT about the community's attitude towards Eddowes.

                    And if I might be pedantic yet again and quote myself from Facebook; I think issues about her health, her substance abuse, and her lifestyle are worth hashing out.:

                    I must respectfully say that it is important to understand the real lives on the ground - not on the printed page or on the computer screen - and have a proper sense of the victimology. If you think these women were bon vivants or something out of My Fair Lady - and some posters clearly do - why then you are meaning to tell us that Jack was a proper Hunter....not some cowardly scumbag preying on the desperate. As Trevor Bond has said one doesn't need to like these women to seek justice for them.


                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by SirRobertAnderson View Post

                      And if I might be pedantic yet again and quote myself from Facebook; I think issues about her health, her substance abuse, and her lifestyle are worth hashing out.:

                      I must respectfully say that it is important to understand the real lives on the ground - not on the printed page or on the computer screen - and have a proper sense of the victimology. If you think these women were bon vivants or something out of My Fair Lady - and some posters clearly do - why then you are meaning to tell us that Jack was a proper Hunter....not some cowardly scumbag preying on the desperate. As Trevor Bond has said one doesn't need to like these women to seek justice for them.


                      Hi Bob

                      I know you weren't specifically speaking about myself and whatever ideas I might have about the victims, but I must say that after I educated myself by reading deeply about the murders in works by such authors as Begg, Sugden, Evans & Skinner, etc., I was never under any illusion that these women were anything other than down at the heel. I think that applies to most of the regulars here, and their understanding of the lives of the women. I should think that anyone who thinks, as you say some posters do, that "these women were bon vivants or something out of My Fair Lady" is likely to be completely new to the case and naive as to the facts.

                      Best regards

                      Chris
                      Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
                      https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

                      Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
                      Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Chris G. View Post
                        Hi Bob
                        I should think that anyone who thinks, as you say some posters do, that "these women were bon vivants or something out of My Fair Lady" is likely to be completely new to the case and naive as to the facts.
                        If for no other reason, I'm glad we have these threads because I have learned that some people - not new to the case - think Eddowes was only fond of the occasional nip and wasn't a prostitute. And in robust physical condition as evidenced by the hopping.

                        I think Eddowes and Kelly lived a subsistence lifestyle. Many in the East End did. They did what they had to do to survive.

                        I am actually surprised that the idea that she'd be post-menopausal attracted as much push back as it did. All these statistics reflect women that had access to healthcare.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Paul View Post
                          Hi Debs,
                          It is possible you might be misremembering Kelly's statement as reported by the police: "On the previous Monday night they slept in Kent, where they were hopping. They came up from Kent on Thursday, he believed..." It's in The Ultimate (which I am delighted to see is available for the Kindle!).
                          Hi Paul. Not being able to find anything in the papers I think you are correct, and that is probably the statement I was thinking of. They slept in Kent on Monday, arrived in London on Thursday, but no mention of where they slept in between those days so I took it that they walked home over that time and maybe slept rough? Taking 2-3 days and going hungry?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by SirRobertAnderson View Post

                            I am actually surprised that the idea that she'd be post-menopausal attracted as much push back as it did. All these statistics reflect women that had access to healthcare.
                            It wasn't presented as an idea though-it was a bold statement that she couldn't be anything else!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by SirRobertAnderson View Post
                              If for no other reason, I'm glad we have these threads because I have learned that some people - not new to the case - think Eddowes was only fond of the occasional nip and wasn't a prostitute. And in robust physical condition as evidenced by the hopping.

                              I think Eddowes and Kelly lived a subsistence lifestyle. Many in the East End did. They did what they had to do to survive.

                              I am actually surprised that the idea that she'd be post-menopausal attracted as much push back as it did. All these statistics reflect women that had access to healthcare.
                              I used to take it for granted that Eddowes was a heavy drinker and now I'm having second thoughts, so I'm glad of these threads too.

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                              • *sigh*

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