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  • Robbery as a Motive

    Fisherman said something on the Mother Board that I just found extraordinary.

    I don't doubt Jack took things from the victims, and those things might include money, but I've never considered robbery to have entered Jack's mind as a motive. (I realize this is not exactly what Fisherman is saying; just want to use it as a starting point.)

    Anyone else have any thoughts on this ?

    Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

    I think that the fact that Eddowes and Chapman were found with small items of their possesion lying around points to a killer who went through the pockets of his victims looking for money, and threw away the worthless bits and pieces. Though his focus must have been totally directed to the abdomens of the women, he still took the time and felt the need to look for money. It points very much to Jack being a man of decidedly small means.


    Fisherman

  • #2
    I've read that argument in a couple of books (usually when arguing for a "local nobody" type suspect). The argument points out that none of the victims had any money on them when found, the suggestion being that the Ripper took it.

    Aninteresting idea, which Tom first proposed on casebook (we explored it in some depth), was the idea that the Ripper staged his attacks as robberies in order to reassure the victims and lower their resistance. I think the idea shows a lot of promise.
    "The Men who were not the Man who was not Jack the Ripper!"

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    • #3
      Hi Magpie and Sir Bob

      I would concur that it looks as if the Ripper robbed his victims since they did not have money on them when their bodies were found. Also that this would appear to point to a poor man as the Ripper. Or else, looking at it another way, a penny-pinching well-off man.

      Chris
      Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
      https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

      Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
      Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

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      • #4
        Where Have You Been?

        http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?p=3810#post3810

        So VOTE already!

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        • #5
          Taking a look at the location of where Nichols was murdered,I feel this was a blitz killing and that the Ripper didn't use any specific approach on her.

          Likewise with Chapman,whom I feel Mrs.Long did see negotiating with her killer.

          Stride is found with cachous in hand,no time to "reach for the sky" if approached with robbery as motive.

          Eddowes' scenario is tougher to call and Kelly is killed indoors where the chances are robbery wasn't a motive. Just my opinion.
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          • #6
            Originally posted by Magpie View Post
            I've read that argument in a couple of books (usually when arguing for a "local nobody" type suspect). The argument points out that none of the victims had any money on them when found, the suggestion being that the Ripper took it.
            Robbery is mentioned as a partial motive for Bury in MacPherson's book with the point that he was a chronic alcoholic in need of anything that could get him even one drink.

            JM

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            • #7
              It points very much to Jack being a man of decidedly small means.

              Or as Chris suggested, it could point to Jack being a small man who was decidedly mean.

              One could argue that since he did not consider these women to be worth anything alive, he may not have seen why they should be worth a penny to anyone dead.

              One could also argue that a man with money is the one who misses few opportunities to put pennies in his pocket, and takes up few opportunities to part with them.

              But all this supposes that his victims had a bean on them to start with - or at least looked as though they might. I doubt either was the case.

              If they had managed to earn - and retain - just a few pennies before Jack was out on the prowl, then they might have been sleeping under someone's roof instead of still out and about for him to encounter. He did seem to pick off those we know to have been in dire need of immediate funds for bed or booze. So I doubt any of them would have given Jack the impression that they already had money on them. I can't think of anyone less likely than poor, weary, sick unto death Annie Chapman, by the time she had been out all night, to look like she could possibly have had two farthings to rub together.

              And if Jack thought otherwise, or was as poor and desperate as his victims, would he have had what it took to get away with it time after time?

              Love,

              Caz
              X
              I wish I were two puppies then I could play together - Storm Petersen

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              • #8
                Hi Caz

                The victims might not have had money, but was Jack trying to recover money he'd given them prior to the attack?

                Robert

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                • #9
                  This is a long shot,but there's no guarantee that if any coins were found in the backyard of Hanbury Street that they were definitely from either the Ripper or Chapman.

                  One thing that makes me ( just an opinion) lean towards a blitz-style killing in most of the murders....and not robbery....is this:

                  Mrs.Long states that the two people she saw outside 29 were talking loudly. My feeling is that the Ripper,while in this case not simply assaulting Chapman as I think he did Nichols on Bucks Row,was bereft of the ways of seductive or suggestive speech....and because of this,is in 'violation" of the proper manner of conduct in picking up a pross.

                  In most or nearly all circumstances involving procurement,the client will conduct himself in a quiet,discreet fashion when making "the move" to acquire sexual services from a pross. That they were talking loudly...and in full view of Mrs.Long,this is not only somewhat unusual,but like virtually all illegal activities,one is usually less boisterous or in this case," loud" about their intentions.

                  I think that the Ripper was not only filled with hate towards women/prosses....but that he didn't want to expend any time even negotiating with them before he killed them. The loud chatter that Long remembered,to me,is indicative of this inability on the Ripper's part to be able to negotiate or...his indifference to the protocol of picking up a pross.
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
                    Hi Caz

                    The victims might not have had money, but was Jack trying to recover money he'd given them prior to the attack?

                    Robert
                    Very possibly, Robert. But if he was so poor that he couldn't afford to leave his money behind (but presumably couldn't use it for essentials either because he'd need it to attract each new victim), then it was one more thing he had to think about in the limited time he had with the bodies.

                    It may, however, have been more to do with the compulsions I outlined: not being able to abide the thought of leaving a penny piece of his own hard-earned money with these women who, from his point of view, were grabbing men's money the easy way. That mentality could apply as easily to a man of means as to one who barely scraped a living.

                    I was also taking Sir Robert's lead at the top of the thread and considering the possibility of a robbery motive, which would not apply if he were simply recovering his own outlay and not expecting any more where that came from.

                    Love,

                    Caz
                    X
                    I wish I were two puppies then I could play together - Storm Petersen

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                    • #11
                      Hi all

                      I certainly don't think robbery was a major motive for Jack but I do think it is possible that it is one of the things he did. But only after he had achieved his primary aim of killing and, in most victims, disemboweling and also, in the cases of Eddowes and Kelly, disfiguring.

                      Chris
                      Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
                      https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

                      Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
                      Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

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                      • #12
                        Did Barnett or anybody else claim that there were objects stolen from Kelly's place by her killer?

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                        • #13
                          No Joe, I'm not aware of anything arising on that score.

                          Robert

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                          • #14
                            Do a time study of the amount of time that the Ripper had to egage the women, kill them and then when their bodies were found. In some of the incidents, his attack was done so fast that he was down to minutes! The speed of the attacks indicate that he was NOT there to rob them. Jack was there to specifically KILL THEM. Anything else was secondary. I tend to believe that Jack killed the first two to throw off investigators or as ruses. The third victim was NOT killed by JtR. Victim # 4 was known to use the alias of "Mary Ann Kelly" and he was actually trying to get Mary Jane Kelly. Instead of getting the right Mary Kelly, JtR killed off the wrong Kelly and then had to make it right by finally killing off Mary Jane Kelly. No, robbery was NOT the main motive. JtR was there for some other reason.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Instructor 173 View Post
                              Do a time study of the amount of time that the Ripper had to egage the women, kill them and then when their bodies were found. In some of the incidents, his attack was done so fast that he was down to minutes! The speed of the attacks indicate that he was NOT there to rob them. Jack was there to specifically KILL THEM. Anything else was secondary. I tend to believe that Jack killed the first two to throw off investigators or as ruses. The third victim was NOT killed by JtR. Victim # 4 was known to use the alias of "Mary Ann Kelly" and he was actually trying to get Mary Jane Kelly. Instead of getting the right Mary Kelly, JtR killed off the wrong Kelly and then had to make it right by finally killing off Mary Jane Kelly. No, robbery was NOT the main motive. JtR was there for some other reason.
                              Kelly is a common name and common alias. As shown on the mother board, another prostitute of the era in Manchester also called herself Mary Kelly. Given the number of victims, in fact, it would be surprising if there was not another victim who used the name Kelly. So I think might be a stretch to believe that the killer mixed up the women and killed the wrong one. It is probably a coincidence that Eddowes used as one of her aliases the name Mary Ann Kelly and that the next woman killed was named Mary Jane Kelly.

                              Chris
                              Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
                              https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

                              Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
                              Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

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