Hebrephenic Vs Paranoic

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

Discuss away...

My premise is that the Ripper would be more likely to be a paranoid schizophrenic rather than a hebephrenic shizophrenic

Alongside this premise, can Aaron Kosminski be diagnosed as suffering from hebephrenic schizophrenia rather than any other mental illness?

[Jeff Leahy]

isorganized schizophrenia, also known as hebephrenia is a subtype of schizophrenia as defined in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, DSM-IV code 295.10.[1]
Disorganized schizophrenia is thought to be an extreme expression of the disorganization syndrome that has been hypothesised to be one aspect of a three-factor model of symptoms in schizophrenia,[2] the other factors being reality distortion (involving delusions and hallucinations) and psychomotor poverty (poverty of speech, lack of spontaneous movement and various aspects of blunting of emotion).

Try wiki first shall we

"This form of schizophrenia is typically associated with early onset (often between the ages of 15 and 25 years) and is thought to have a poor prognosis because of the rapid development of 'negative' symptoms and decline in social functioning"

and?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hebrephenic Vs Paranoic

Is that how you'd characterize your debates with Jeff Leahy?

<--- Jeff

<----- Nemo

<---- When no one's looking

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

Yes, and by pure coincidence, the smilies also represent a paranoic schitzophrenic

[Jeff Leahy]

Please come back to me when you've both dome some basic research on this illness...which is what it is....

Of course there is some recent thinking which seeks to rethink some of these syptoms as syndromes

But however you think this is very rare and taking the advice of people with day to day experience of the condition is the practiacal way of trying to understand what might...and I say might be happening

Yours Jeff

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

www.schizophrenia.com is slightly more up-market Jeff

Here's a nice summary of the "old" term "hebephrenic" schizophrenia...

Hebephrenic schizophrenia, more commonly known as disorganized schizophrenia, is one of the subtypes of schizophrenia.

It is a complex and chronic psychiatric disorder. The term “hebephrenic” is an older term which is still used in some classifications of psychiatric disorders with regards to this type of schizophrenia

The primary symptoms include significant impairment in thought processes, speech, behavior, and emotional expression and response.

Characteristics and Symptoms

There are three prominent symptoms which are characteristic of hebephrenic schizophrenia:

Disorganized speech
Disorganized speech may be evidenced in a variety of ways. For example, when responding to a question, the person may give an answer which has little or no relevance to the question. S/he may abruptly jump from one topic to another while talking, or make up words as s/he goes along. In particularly severe cases, the person’s words may be complete nonsense, sometimes referred to as “word salad”.

This impairment in speech is due to significant impairment in the person’s thinking. His/her thought processes are often illogical, and don’t connect very well. Hence it shows up in his/her speech.

Hebephrenic schizophrenics often experience something known as “thought blocking”. They may stop suddenly while talking, as if the thought abruptly left them. They may express feeling as if someone or something removed the thought from their mind.

Disorganized behavior
When a schizophrenic’s behavior is considered “disorganized”, it may mean s/he is unable to or lacks the motivation to start or carry out a given task, such as preparing a meal or getting dressed. Their behavior may be bizarre, such as wearing layer upon layer of clothing in the middle of summer. Or, their behavior may be grossly inappropriate, such as acting out sexually in public. They may completely neglect personal grooming and have a very unkempt appearance.

Blunted or inappropriate emotional expression and response
A person with hebephrenic schizophrenia will often appear to have no emotions. His/her face may look completely blank, and his/her speech may be monotone. At times, s/he may have an emotional response which is completely irrelevant to the context, such as laughing or giggling suddenly, when nothing funny has occurred.

Additional Diagnostic Criteria
In order to meet the diagnosis of schizophrenia, regardless of the type, these other criteria must also be met:

A marked decline in functioning, after the onset of symptoms, in at least one of the primary aspects of the person’s life (e.g., work, school, relationships, self-care)

Signs of the disorder are present continuously for a period of at least 6 months. For at least one month of that time period (less if they subside due to effective treatment), the active-phase symptoms (e.g. delusions, hallucinations, extremely disorganized behavior, etc.) must be present.
Schizoaffective disorder (a disorder similar to schizophrenia but with prominent mood episodes) or other mood disorder have been ruled out

Other Characteristics
Other characteristics often exhibited by individuals with hebephrenic schizophrenia may include poor job or school performance, social withdrawal, lack of coordination, odd postures, childlike silliness, or grimacing. While they may have hallucinations or delusions, they are not pronounced. Since they are often quite impaired, living independently may be impossible for them.

written by Dr. Cheryl Lane, PsyD

[Jeff Leahy]

Hebophrenics can still experience paranioa which is common within the condition, it can take place between 18-25 years

Your not making a case here Nemo

Yours Jeff

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

I'm not making a case Jeff, that would be me trying to prove a negative

If I were making a case it would be that the Ripper was a paranoid schizophrenic suffering from delusions

I'm genuinely interested in what you/Lars have to put forward that would indicate that Kosminski/ the Ripper suffer from hebephrenic schizophrenia

[Jeff Leahy]

I'm not making a case Jeff, that would be me trying to prove a negative

If I were making a case it would be that the Ripper was a paranoid schizophrenic suffering from delusions

I'm genuinely interested in what you/Lars have to put forward that would indicate that Kosminski/ the Ripper suffer from hebrephenic schizophrenia

What I think is as irelivant as what Tom Wescott thinks..

Its what Dr Lars thought...that is important

He was given the case notes and all information pertaining to Aaron Kosminski and came to teh conclussion the Aaron was suffering Hebophrenic Schizophrenia and I spoke to another expert who confirmed that..

So I'm just going by what I've been advised and I'm quoting my sources.

If you'd like to disagree with that then please quote yours

Yours Jeff

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

Jeff, I'm not disputing Lars' work as I haven't seen it. I'm just disagreeing with you stating certain things as fact when they are in reality your incorrect interpretation of someone's opinion that you contradict at times

You have stated a number of times that Aaron is a hebephrenic schizophrenic and you just said you came to that conclusion independently from Lars due to you spending years studying and "specialising" in the subject

Well, is it too much to ask you to explain that in detail? Why do I need to provide sources to do that?

Have you formed an opinion as to why the conclusion is correct, or did you just blindly accept it as you are making out now?

In your learned opinion, is a HS more likely to be the Ripper than any other type of schizophrenic?

Let me help you - because you haven't really got a clue about schizophrenia have you?

You haven't spent years "specialising" in the subject have you?

When someone asks you to explain your confident assertion, you decline and just point them to Lars work, which is fair enough, that's where I will look before I respond further - is it available?

In the meantime, we find that Lars states (according to you yourself) that he can't really assess Kosminski without having met and worked with him - I'd agree

Lars and "Dr X" state that a HS is no more likely to commit this type of crime than any other

If Aaron was found to be a HS then I think that would actually go against him being the Ripper

If it's a theory that Aaron was a HS then that's fine

It's you touting it as a fact that strengthens Kosminski's candidacy as the Ripper and tagging Lars' name on it as an expert that is out of order

There are people reading these boards who may value your opinion, and in my opinion you are leading them astray

It's that simple

[Tom_Wescott]

I confess that the 'Dr. Lars' talk had me perplexed for a while. I thought perhaps Mr. Poster had returned...with a medical degree. God help us if that happened.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

Jeff, I'm not disputing Lars' work as I haven't seen it. I'm just disagreeing with you stating certain things as fact when they are in reality your incorrect interpretation of someone's opinion that you contradict at times

And where i have requested that you demonstrate, show source for that opinion, you fail to do so.

You have stated a number of times that Aaron is a hebrephenic schizophrenic and you just said you came to that conclusion independently from Lars due to you spending years studying and "specialising" in the subject

NO. Dr Lars came to the opinion that Aaron Kosminski was a hebophrenic Schizophrenic. I simply see no reason to contradict that opinion.

Well, is it too much to ask you to explain that in detail? Why do I need to provide sources to do that?

Because its you that are making the claim its wrong. So I'm asking you to explain why.

Have you formed an opinion as to why the conclusion is correct, or did you just blindly accept it as you are making out now?

I see no reason to contradict his conclusion. Its you that seem to believe that Hebophrenic and paraniod Schizophrenia are seperate illness. Where as I see paranioa as a syndrome of Hebophrenic Schizophrenia. And as we know Aaron heard 'vioces' telling him the movement of all mankind...it strikes me that this is a clear symptom of paranioa and hebophrenic schizophrenia.

In your learned opinion, is a HS more likely to be the Ripper than any other type of schizophrenic?

YES

Let me help you - because you haven't really got a clue about schizophrenia have you?

I first started work on a program called 'Insdie the mind of Jack the Ripper' in 2003-4, long before coming to the Definitive Story. So my interest in this particular area of teh Ripper case is a long one. But I am an amiteur ripperologist not an accademic. As a producer I seek professional opinion.

You haven't spent years "specialising" in the subject have you?

Read above. Its an area that interests me and I have sort expert opinion on.

When someone asks you to explain your confident assertion, you decline and just point them to Lars work, which is fair enough, that's where I will look before I respond further - is it available?

Actually my research was done with another expert who due to his posistion was unable to contribute to the program except in an advisory capacity. Working in this field is somewhat sensitive. And making public connection to Jack teh Ripper and schizophrenia would be highly irresponcible. Schizophrenic's are not more dangerous than other members of society and it would be wrong to demonize a vonerable section of society.

The JtR case is unique and so rare that you can count similar occurances (depending how you do so) in almost single figures in the past 120 years.

In the meantime, we find that Lars states (according to you yourself) that he can't really assess Kosminski without having met and worked with him - I'd agree

YES. Both Dr Lars and Dr X have stated that to draw the conclusion that Aaron was Jack the Ripper from the available evidence is NOT possible. They would have to undertake one to one study and even then perhaps never reach a conclusion. What is being discussed is the POSSIBILITY that Aaron Kosminski may have been Jack the Ripper. And in that there appears to be nothing specific, from what is known that rules out the possibility. His age and syptom's and his lack of violence once removed from environment all appear consistant with what is known about Schizophrenia.

Although Dr X raised several aspects of what is known as being unusual. Schizophrenics by and large have low sex drives. Compulsive masterbation is not a typical symptom.

Lars and "Dr X" state that a HS is no more likely to commit this type of crime than any other

NO. the precise quote is 'Nomore likely than other members of society to commit violent crime.' I'd say that was fairly specific.

If Aaron was found to be a HS then I think that would actually go against him being the Ripper

Yes you keep saying this but then provide no source or rreason for your conclussion. Which is very frustrating.

If it's a theory that Aaron was a HS then that's fine

Why is that fine? Dr Lars gave his professional opinion that from what he had read on teh subject (and he was provided with all existing case notes) that he felt Aaron Kosminski suffered a form of schizophrenia which he would describe as hebophrenic Schizophrenia.

That was his professional opinion.

It's you touting it as a fact that strengthens Kosminski's candidacy as the Ripper and tagging Lars' name on it as an expert that is out of order

No. I've simply said that theres nothing in what is known that excludes Aaron Kosminski as a potencial perpetrator of these crimes.

Given that its been argued extensively that because Aaron doesnt appear to have been violent enough to have committed the JtR murders. i think this is a valid point to highlight. In itself it doesn't make Aaron Kosminski jack the Ripper its just another piece of the jigsaw I feel doesn't exclude him from being so.

There are people reading these boards who may value your opinion, and in my opinion you are leading them astray

In what way? You keep saying this but provide know evidence or explanation for your reasoning.

It's that simple

No it isn't.

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

"Duckworth says, "Again, it's complicated. The truth is that most people are completely benign. But, another truth: There is a small subset of the population that can be dangerous, usually people who are also using drugs or alcohol. And, around 10 percent kill themselves, which is inherently violent."

There is evidence that suggests that psychoses can and do fuel violent behaviors, but the actual numbers don't justify a fear of all people with schizophrenia. People with psychotic symptoms account for only 5 percent of violent crime, and some estimate the number closer to 1 percent."

Please be aware that I have consistantly pointed out, how rare violent schizophenic or psychotic behaviour actually is....

My arguement also balances the very rare and uniquie occurance of the Ripper murders which now leaves me to believe the possibility that Jack killed more women than the suggested cannon.

"Schizophrenia is a mental disorder that is caused within people. This disorder takes the person away from reality and in addition they start going in a fantasy arena of their own. 1-2% to the population is affected on this disorder worldwide. There are several , among which disorganized schizophrenia is just about the most dangerous ones. This disorder can also be known as hebephrenic schizophrenia. It will always be cased after the age of 25 playing with rare cases it will always be observed earlier also."

I would think that Aaron's age of development of schizophrenia was quite key in his Dr LArs thought process. Late teens early twenties actually being the typical age range of Hebophrenic schizophrenic on-set.

Yours Jeff

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

Originally Posted by Nemo
Jeff, I'm not disputing Lars' work as I haven't seen it. I'm just disagreeing with you stating certain things as fact when they are in reality your incorrect interpretation of someone's opinion that you contradict at times

Originally Posted by Jeff
And where i have requested that you demonstrate, show source for that opinion, you fail to do so.

I provided sources on the other thread that indicate you contradict yourself when referencing Lars work, so I think I've adequately shown that you are stating things that rely on your incorrect interpretation of someone's opinion

Where did your statement originate that a hebephrenic schizophrenic is the most likely sub category of schizophrenia to commit these type of crimes?

Dr Lars himself might be concerned that you are claiming to quote him when you clearly are not

If you want me to explain why I personally think the symptoms of HS do not adequately match the known symptoms of Kosminski's illness then that is no problem, I'll get around to that shortly. I was just waiting to hear your detailed analysis so I know what I'm arguing against, but you seem loathe to express it

Meanwhile, if I can show you a report from an "expert" that says the Ripper is likely a paranoid schizophrenic, would you latch on to that report and claim it as truth? Is the crucial factor the commenter's expertise?

Would that negate Kosminski's candidacy as the Ripper in your mind? Or are you now saying Kosminski belongs to a subset of hebephrenic schizophrenics that are also paranoid schizophrenics?

You previously stated that you had a Eureka moment when you related the periodic nature of hebephrenic schizophrenia to the Ripper's timetable of attacks

In your sort of expert opinion, is a schizophrenic any more likely to commit violent crimes during psychotic periods than in periods of lucidity?

I note you don't seem so sure of the diagnosis and conclusions that can be drawn from it now

If you are saying that it is only a possibility that Kosminski was a disorganised schizophrenic, then I can go with that, as all things are possible

If you would like to detail why you agree with Dr Lars that Kosminski was possibly a HS then we have a starting point on which to discuss other possibilities

Until then, I can only assess what is required to diagnose a person as being a hebephrenic schizophrenic and compare it with what is known about Kosminski, and they don't adequately match IMO

Even if they did match and we could diagnose Aaron as a HS, they don't indicate in any way that Aaron had periodical attacks of psychosis that explain the Ripper murders taking place at the weekends, and they do not in any way indicate that Aaron was suffering from a condition that makes him more likely to have been the Ripper than anyone else

If you are trying to say that you've discovered that nothing negates Kosminski being the Ripper, then that's a bit pointless as we knew that already

There's nothing that negates Lewis Carroll being the Ripper is there?

I'll give you a clue in regard to HS and Kosminski - "impairment"

Regards

Nemo

[Jeff Leahy]

[COLOR="Navy"]Originally Posted by Nemo
Jeff, I'm not disputing Lars' work as I haven't seen it. I'm just disagreeing with you stating certain things as fact when they are in reality your incorrect interpretation of someone's opinion that you contradict at times


Regards

Nemo

You seem to be under some bizarre delussion that Schizophgrenics can be bashed into neat stereo types when nothing could be further from the truth.

And again you've failed to answer any of my questions. So we will simply have to wait and see what the hell it is your going on about.

I will try and reply when I have more time later.

But there is and has never been any contridiction in my position on Dr Lars.

He claims that Aaron was probably suffering a form of schizopphria called disorganised or hebophrenic.

This term is over simplistic as Hebophrenics can also be Paraniod and Aaron clearly was...

And the big problem is the term Schizophrenia inself which many experts would claim miss leading. The illness being more like SYNDROMES creating broad spectrums.

Anyway I'll just sit back and give you enough rope.

Yours Jeff