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The Hunter Fallacy

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  • #31
    HI How

    Killed on the pavement......but you do not know how far she may have gotten from an attack initiated any where else? The nearest gate.....or dark spot?

    All the others were in enclosed spaces essentially. Polly may perhaps have gotten free, wriggled away or whatever before he caught up with her after the initial attack and finished her where she was found.

    Of all the locations...Pollys was the one with the best options for flight of all of them.

    p

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Mr. Poster View Post
      Scorn is directed at osmotically absorbed guff passing off as argument.
      "Osmotically absorbed guff"? You seem to suggest that I don't think these things through for myself, MrP. I'll take that as hubris, rather than malice, on your part.
      I have no pet theory. I have the only thing supported by evidence.
      I can only imagine that you're playing Devil's Advocate, then - since you seem to be giving entirely the opposite impression.

      Comment


      • #33
        Hi ho SamF
        You seem to suggest that I don't think these things through for myself, MrP.
        I never underestimate you SamF. BUt in that case you should have absolutely no trouble in laying out the foundations of you case that jtR was a hunter/predator.

        And I trust that you will not have to resort to diffuse concepts such as "the big picture" or "no killings outside Whitechapel".

        There must be some concrete aspects that you feel support the Hunter/Predator notion along the same lines that I feel the concrete aspects I have outlined support my contention that they were more random events.

        Because, and I know you are a reasonable man, I assume you DO have some concrete details of the crimes that support your contention.

        In the same way that saying two signatures are different because, and repeating ad nauseum, an expert said so, is, I feel, an abdication of ones responsibility in supporting such a contention ...... I also contend that relying on terms such as "the big picture" is an abdication of responsibility and is as reprehensible as the oft slung "You just don't get it!".

        p

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        • #34
          How's this ( I couldn't keep away from the thread after all...) sound?

          Premise A:

          The Ripper, on many occasions, several occasions...or even only a few...went out and about in the same mental state he'd have been found in on days when he didn't kill...as well as those that he did kill...carrying a weapon of course...not necessarily "seeking" or engaged in predatory behavior...but coming into contact with someone...or even some "thing"...which served as a trigger and set in motion the subsequent murders...and then returned to his digs.Lets call this Ripper the "Spur Of The Moment" Ripper. It follows Lars' thinking,if I may be so bold to assume this,more closely than any other on this thread.

          Premise B:

          The Ripper, on only a few occasions, went out specifically to find a female to murder...or specifically, a prostitute to murder...and a reasonably secure location according to his perceptions at the time to perform the intended, premeditated act of murder at...and then returned to his digs. Lets call this Ripper the "Man With The Plan" Ripper. It follows Sam's line of thinking,if I may be so bold to assume this,more closely than any other on this thread.

          Premise C;

          The Ripper, on only a few occasions, went out specifically to find a female to murder...or specifically, a prostitute to murder...and in or at whatever location that was presented or available regardless of any risks we would consider alarming. Lets call this Ripper the "By Any Means Necessary" Ripper. I can't speak for anyone else, but it is the one I lean towards, despite having great respect for the first two arguments made so far. By virtue of the locations of two murders, specifically two from within the 'canon'...that being Nichols' and Chapman's...I see enough disparity between the locations that an alternative to Sam's seminal ideas and Lars' seminal ideas might be worth considering.

          I don't know how much the locations are factored into these two gentlemen's theories, but for me,they do.

          Now I can go sit down and shut up.
          To Join JTR Forums :
          Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

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          • #35
            hi ho HOw

            I can go with Premise A. Indeed I am compelled to as it is the only one with which the facts agree.

            The only quibble I have with it is that I reckon he may have continued about his activities as opposed to returning to his digs.

            At any rate, his returning would not necessarliy have been precipitated by his having killed anyone.

            p

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            • #36
              Lets hear from Sammy...and if he agrees with my 'Premises' and that he agrees with Premise B... then lets get this thread steamin' !
              To Join JTR Forums :
              Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

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              • #37
                LOL Sam, and his Ripperology game!

                Ive noticed that a lot since my interest in the Ripper began, people get sooooo tetchy over stuff sometimes, it scares me...anyway, surely the point of these forums is to chat/converse/discuss all to do with the case, its pretty obvious sometimes people wont agree with one another AND things will be repeated...until the case is solved...haha whenever that will be, prob not in my lifetime...

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                • #38
                  Hi all

                  I think the scenario (for that's what it is) that Mr Poster puts forward, that the Ripper was not a hunter type, is a very good one

                  But it is not the only one (as usual) and the option remains that he was a hunter type

                  I could go with the idea that he did not plan the encounter to a certain extent, especially as I was thinking a bit along these lines recently.My thoughts related to a modern serial killer's "trigger" of any woman who refused his advances. It has passed through my mind previous to this that all of the C5 and possibly beyond, into Tabram territory - would have been in a position where they perhaps refused the Ripper's advances - ie they said "No" to whatever he was requesting

                  Mary Nichols may have been drunk and ill by that time of the morning - Annie Chapman was heard to say "No" - a short time before she fell against the fence, so it probably wasn't a timid cry of "No!" when she saw the knife - Liz Stride was heard to be possibly refusing business, "Not tonight, some other night" - Eddowes was maybe still drunk and in a hurry to get somewhere after being locked up - and Mary could fit that bill - especially if the Ripper was Hutchinson, as he may well have had an encounter with Mary at 2am, but the fact that he did not have sixpence may have caused her to move on to another client.

                  So I could possibly see a Ripper raged by so lowly a woman who refused his advances - with other prostitutes he may well have completed the transaction

                  It's true that there is not much definitive evidence pointing toward him being a hunter, but that's because there is so little evidence for anything regarding his character - there is little or no evidence to say he was not such a killer

                  I think the "special" type of knife , the timing of the murders in the early hours, the consistent weekend/holiday timeframe, the need to premeditate the "exit plan" carrying flesh and organs and being bloodstained etc points more to a premeditated, planned, hunting killer

                  I think he knew what he was looking for on those particular nights, and probably others besides.

                  He would obviously have many nights during which he might roam the East End interacting with people and prostitutes without having or fulfilling any need to kill at that time

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                  • #39
                    Hi ho Nemo

                    But it is not the only one (as usual) and the option remains that he was a hunter type
                    Indeed it does but the option also remains that the Loch Ness monster exists. Its just that there is no evidence at all for that option...

                    It has passed through my mind previous to this that all of the C5 and possibly beyond, into Tabram territory - would have been in a position where they perhaps refused the Ripper's advances - ie they said "No" to whatever he was requesting
                    Thats a fair point but the victims were absolutely desperate (except Stride possibly). I cannot think how they could have refused our man provided he didnt produce a knife before propositioning them.

                    there is little or no evidence to say he was not such a killer
                    On that we will have to disagree.

                    I think the "special" type of knife ,
                    I havent heard of that.

                    the need to premeditate the "exit plan" carrying flesh and organ
                    s

                    I see no evidence of a plan and his flight from Eddowes was hardly well planned? At any rate how could he plan anything when the whores chose the spot?

                    and being bloodstained etc
                    Its generally accpeted that there was no need for him to be bloodstained at alll.

                    p

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Hi Lars

                      So you think he was in the East End on a regular basis, but something "triggered" the killing mostly on weekends and holidays?

                      Perhaps he really did "love his work" and got really frustrated when he had to take a day off? (excuse that flippancy)


                      When these events occurred, he happened to be carrying an 8-10" straight bladed pointed tip knife?

                      If he thought he could be triggered to kill so ferociously, did he remove himself from that situation or try to avoid it?

                      To me he seemed to be placing himself in the position to be "triggered"

                      Is that not a form of pre-meditation? seeing if the victim passed some kind of test?

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Mr. Poster View Post
                        At any rate how could he plan anything when the whores chose the spot?
                        "IF the whores chose the spot", not "WHEN", MrP. Besides, as I said yesterday, he had first to be in an area where these women could "find him", which shows at least an element of purposeful behaviour on his behalf.

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                        • #42
                          HI SamF

                          Middle of the night, Ripper about, Whitechapel being Whitechapel, .....perhaps of all the skanky spots in London...whitechapel was the one where the probabilities were highest that he would be accosted.

                          AS to picking spots.....someone will have to explain to me how an enclosed yard over looked by a window with one exit was a spot a killer would "pick".

                          p

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                            Furthermore, he comes pre-equipped with a razor-sharp knife. After using this weapon, he ends up with some blood-staining and rather incriminating (organic) evidence on his person, so one must assume he comes equipped with an exit-strategy as well - or, at least, he feels that he can get to ground quickly and safely.
                            I can't see how we can escape this conclusion. Let us not leave out that he pulled off these kills in a rather well defined area, despite an overwhelming police presence after the first two murders (three if we include Tabram, and the police of the time had to be thinking that way...)

                            The majority of present day Manhattan is obviously a grid, but Greenwich Village and the Wall Street area - the oldest areas - remind me more than a bit of Whitechapel. I'd be hard pressed to think I could get away with a brazen crime down there without knowing the lanes and alleys intimately. (I've lived in NYC almost my entire life and I still get lost in the Village.) Too many cul de sacs, too many chances of running around in a circle. Perhaps luck would shine on me one or twice, but 5 or 6 or 7 times ? I just don't see it.

                            And a bolthole ? Essential IMHO. I believe he took trophies, and I believe that as careful as he might be, the cleaning up necessary went well beyond what you could do at an open tap in public. (I'd also argue that he needed to know beforehand where he could cleanup quickly.) I'm not that concerned with blood per se, but the fecal matter. Again, once or twice, perhaps he could have gotten away without a major clean up. But 5+ times ?

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                            • #44
                              Blood sticks and stains almost as much as faeces

                              If he has got faeces on him, then he would most likely have blood on him

                              He seems to take the apron to clean off the faeces - he doesn't need it when only blood is present

                              I wonder why that is?

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Nemo View Post
                                He seems to take the apron to clean off the faeces - he doesn't need it when only blood is present

                                I wonder why that is?
                                Probably because faeces stink worse than blood and, because he'd have known that he'd left behind a corpse upon whose externalised viscera he'd smeared faecal matter, the stench would have been somewhat incriminating even if he got shot of his knife and the "trophies". Here was a man, I feel, who was desperate to clean himself quickly to avoid undue suspicion. This suggests strongly to me that he wasn't too far from his bolthole/residence when he scrubbed up (and - no - I don't necessarily mean the Victoria Home, although it's a possibility), otherwise he could have high-tailed it out of the district sooner, and washed his hands at comparative leisure. If he was that keen on the main roads, he could have swilled his hands in the Aldgate Pump, I daresay (he wasn't that far away from it after he'd left Mitre Square), or any number of horse-troughs in the area... but he seems to have headed directly to Goulston Street.

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