Location Location Location

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi all

Thought I'd start a thread following some discussion about Jimmy Saville (Not that I'm interested in him) but clearly he was a sexual preditor who appears to have moved about a lot, committed crimes over his life time and committed crimes at the various locations he was staying at.

This seems fairly typical of the Serial killers I have studied. They move out from there base usually in a 360 degree spread and commit attacks at random heading back to the safety of there home.

I have only come across one exception Colin Ireland, who travelled from Southend to a Gay club in Barking to pick up his victims. And this seems largely influenced by the lack of other similar places at that time.

But by and large Serial killers DONT get on a train or plane travel to a single specific location, kill only in that location and head long distances back to another location as a base.

Serial killers covert and kill what they see, they do it all their lives (I accept there appears to be evidence of some serial killers laying dormant for periods of time) But they kill over wide areas only if they themselves have travelled or moved to a different area.

So what I'm concluding here is that Ripper theories can be put into two camps. The Jack lived at the heart of the Murders Camp (And the only one which makes any sense to me)
and the Jack travelled from outside and killed only in the Eastend camp. Which clearly makes no sense what so ever and would dis-count around 95 to 98% of all the suspect who have been put forward as JtR.

Of course there are a few flies in that statement including Carry Brown. But I wonder given what is known about serial killers and sexual preditors today, if we should just cut from our thinking anyone not actually living in Whitechapel at the time of the murders. And anyone who moved away from Whitechapel and had opportunity and didnt kill after the murders.

Yours Jeff

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

However, there are numerous examples of serial killers travelling some distance to a red light district in order to pick up prostitutes as their victims, subsequently returning to their home "base"

There is nothing at all to indicate that JtR was a local man, there is only a supposition that has a high probability

A travelling JtR makes as much sense as a local one on the known evidence and there is nothing to indicate that the Whitechapel murders were his only crimes

[Jeff Leahy]

However, there are numerous examples of serial killers travelling some distance to a red light district in order to pick up prostitutes as their victims, subsequently returning to their home "base"

There is nothing at all to indicate that JtR was a local man, there is only a supposition that has a high probability

A travelling JtR makes as much sense as a local one on the known evidence and there is nothing to indicate that the Whitechapel murders were his only crimes

Well I'd guess I'd disagree with that. Yes serial killers travel to red light districts but Sutcliff for example travelled to several different areas he didnt stick to one redlight district. And attacked non prostitutes also..

The Ipswich Killer stuck to Ipswich but then thats where he lived.

The Hammersmith Nude murder appears to have travelled into West london red light districts but the body dump pattern gives you something very reminisant of the Whitechapel murders.

I cant think of a serial killer that travelled long distance to a Red light district when there was a closer alternatives available. I'm happy to take on board any examples you may have NEMO

But I've not come across any.

And clearly Jack only hunted in Whitechapel when there were plenty of red light districts in London at that time that would have been less dangerous.

Stan's pretty good on this stuff if he can think of examples..

But I think (opinion) anyone living outside of Whitechapel can be dismissed as a suspect, I'm happy to consider any examples which go against my basic premise.

The Jimmy Saville example is a good one because it shows how sexual preditors opporate over time and distance. There only interest being their end desire, And i dont think Jack would have been that different, although his preference meant killing the victims, an unfortunate side product.

Also I'm not aware of any attacks (Beyond those listed by P Cornwall) that suggest Jack attacks outside Whitchapel, the only real possibility being Carry Brown

Yours Jeff

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

Hi Jeff

I'm not sure what you mean by "closer alternatives available"

I'm not suggesting a killer would bypass anumber of red light areas to target one specific red light area - though it is possible, depending on the psychological motives of the killer

William Grainger was a contemporary suspect Jeff and he was suspected of travelling from Ireland to the East End to commit murder

I know you are not saying every serial killer must live locally to his victims Jeff, so why do you do so with JtR?

There are numerous examples of travelling killers Jeff

I wouldn't expect the killer to purposefully travel to the East End just to find a victim pool, but the East End just happened to be the location he was at

By the simple expedient of the killer being shipborne, he could easily find himself killing in the East End and yet not live there

You are giving modern examples anyway Jeff, whereas the transport and victims available to JtR might well affect his travel arrangements

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Nemo

Your response requires a considered reply and I have work early tomorrow.

Trust you understand i will reply as soon as possible

Many thanks
Yours Jeff

[Stephen Thomas]

I cant think of a serial killer that travelled a long distance to a Red light district when there was a closer alternative available.

Apart from James Maybrick of course

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

No problem Jeff

I just think you are limiting your research unnecessarily

Rather than Grainger travelling to murder, Cork and London just happen to be the places he turned up in

Although I would tend toward the Ripper living in the area during the murders, there is nothing to indicate he is born and bred in London and could well have arrived shortly before the murders began, and went elsewhere after the murders ceased

[Chris G.]

But by and large Serial killers DONT get on a train or plane travel to a single specific location, kill only in that location and head long distances back to another location as a base.

That lets out James Maybrick then. And of course that's always been my argument against the Maybrick Diary. Why murder prostitutes in London when there were perfectly good prostitutes in Liverpool? It's a contrived scenario, and precisely because whomever wrote the Maybrick Diary knew that for Maybrick to be the Ripper he had to travel the 200 miles to London.

[Robert Linford]

"When I were a lad, to be a serial killer I had to get up at 5, take bus then train then bus again, and then hike 20 miles down t'country lane to find t'victim."

"Ay, now the idle wazzocks just go stalking in t'car."

"Not even t'car - some of them want t'victim to come to them."

"Ay - they hide behind door and wait till t'postman comes with t'mail...."

"Or till man comes to read t'gas meter."

"Some of them are so lazy, they don't bother with a victim but kill themselves instead."

"Ay, the whole country's going to t'dogs."

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

Hi Chris

Does not Maybrick having business in Liverpool and London create the scenario?

The extra addition of the link between the two Whitechapels in those cities also gives a reasonably feasible reason for committing murder in London

Not that I think Maybrick was the Ripper, but the scenario is plausible at least

It is possible that the stories of the East End which came to the fore after the Tabram killing could have encouraged an outsider to try his hand in Whitechapel where he had heard women could be bought for 4 pennies

If the man was local, why only kill on the weekends/holidays? and why would he risk killing on the street when he would have known far less risky locations in the area?

[Cris Malone]

If the man was local, why only kill on the weekends/holidays?

The only leisure time available?

...and why would he risk killing on the street when he would have known far less risky locations in the area?

Why would anyone risk killing in the street, no matter where they are from? A more disciplined killer could have played the field much more carefully if he chose and every victim could have been like Kelly. There were plenty of Miller's Courts, in various economic levels, all over London. The Ratcliffe Highway area was full of places that harbored tenements like this, and even more alleys, byways and secluded courtyards, yet no murder of this kind took place there (excluding the Pinchin St. Torso murder which could have been committed anywhere.)

For some reason these murders were highly localized.
For some reason all of the victims were at the very lowest strata of society.
And for some reason they were continually perpetrated under some of the highest risks known in the annals of crime.

Someone of the economic class of a Maybrick or a Druitt could afford to prey on women who would have presented much lesser risks and still gain the desired effect, and there were plenty of opportunities and a better chance for a rapid escape to a base for a merchant seaman to operate around said Ratcliffe Highway or even Poplar. And if the murderer of Catherine Eddowes was any of the above, why did he apparently head back into Spitafields?

Are these not fairly substantial clues?

So, not to derail Jeff's thread here... but in considering location, why were these murders committed where they were?

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

Hi Cris

All good points there

My point really was that ONE explanation for some of JtR's behaviour like that is that he was not living locally

Whichever way you look at it, we can't know on current evidence whether he was local or not, so why assume that he was local and exonerate anyone living outside Whitechapel as Jeff suggests?

[Chris G.]

Hi Chris

Does not Maybrick having business in Liverpool and London create the scenario?

The extra addition of the link between the two Whitechapels in those cities also gives a reasonably feasible reason for committing murder in London

Not that I think Maybrick was the Ripper, but the scenario is plausible at least

It is possible that the stories of the East End which came to the fore after the Tabram killing could have encouraged an outsider to try his hand in Whitechapel where he had heard women could be bought for 4 pennies

If the man was local, why only kill on the weekends/holidays? and why would he risk killing on the street when he would have known far less risky locations in the area?

"The extra addition of the link between the two Whitechapels in those cities also gives a reasonably feasible reason for committing murder in London"

Sorry, Nemo, but that statement just isn't logical. Why would having a Whitechapel in Liverpool encourage the man to murder in Whitechapel, London? It's a connection that the Diarist attempts to make but to my mind it only points out the implausibility of travelling the 200 miles to commit murder.

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

I would agree Chris- I think you know my thoughts on whether Maybrick would have done that

I was just pointing out that him visiting Whitechapel in London anyway provides a plausible reason why a killer would commit his crimes far from his home base

There is a similar aspect to the places used by Gary Ridgeway to dump the bodies of his victims

Where there was no apparent connection to the various dumpsites during the investigation, it was later found that the dump sites correlated with places he had taken his wife for sex

Patricia Cornwell doesn't find anything untoward about Sickert travelling some distance to kill

Without listing tenuous examples, I think you would agree that though JtR being a local man is very likely, the possibility of JtR coming from outside the area cannot be easily discounted

[SirRobertAnderson]

Why would having a Whitechapel in Liverpool encourage the man to murder in Whitechapel, London? It's a connection that the Diarist attempts to make but to my mind it only points out the implausibility of travelling the 200 miles to commit murder.

Of course it wouldn't encourage him.....

But Maybrick had a few reasons to visit London and Whitechapel in particular.

Moving my response to the Maybrick Ghetto so as not to derail Jeff's thread.

http://jtrforums.com/showthread.php?p=179096#post179096