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  • #16
    Hi Jeff

    I'm not sure what you mean by "closer alternatives available"

    Hi Nemo, I wanted to reply to your post properly and I didn’t have time. I’ll try and make myself clearer.

    OK, conversation was had about Jimmy Saville’s sexual predator activity (And as I said I don’t want to get bogged down with Saville) he acted in a way that would seem consistent with a predatory animal, you might even use the example of an Urban Fox. He has a den or in Savilles case a series of dens and he attacks out wards from those dens in Different directions and consistently over a period of time if the Old Fox is not caught.

    Now my premise is that Sexual Serial killers also act in this way. Yes they will be attracted to places where there are lots of prey. In Savilles case, hospitals and children’s homes are full of young vulnerable people and in the serial killers case Red-light districts are full of vulnerable women. But if he opportunity is there to visit different homes or Red-light districts then the predator will take that opportunity if possible.

    I'm not suggesting a killer would bypass a number of red light areas to target one specific red light area - though it is possible, depending on the psychological motives of the killer

    William Grainger was a contemporary suspect Jeff and he was suspected of traveling from Ireland to the East End to commit murder


    Yes but was he a Sexual Serial Killer or a murderer? I see a distinct difference?

    I know you are not saying every serial killer must live locally to his victims Jeff, so why do you do so with JtR?

    OK, yes I’m aware that Serial killers can and do travel. I’m saying that like Saville they always act and behave like Sexual predators. So there crimes take place over a wider area close to the places that they are staying at. In Saville Case, Leeds, Jersey, London, Scarbough etc. But what he doesn’t do is travel and only commits crimes in one place.
    So yes I’m concluding that as there is no realistic evidence for Ripper style murders outside Whitechapel and that the murders appear to be on foot. That Jack probably lived in that small area of Whitchapel.


    There are numerous examples of traveling killers Jeff

    Yes, Peter Sutcliff being a good example. But they behave, as we would expect. Finding places with easy prey and operating from a radial base, unless like Bundie for instance they move for some reason.. Then they still act as sexual predators they radiate from a new base (As did Saville)

    The exceptions I add in are periods of inactivity, which sometimes appear to happen over long periods. However the Fox doesn’t change its nature.


    I wouldn't expect the killer to purposefully travel to the East End just to find a victim pool, but the East End just happened to be the location he was at..

    Again I think it unlikely. The Sexual Predator is always a sexual predator; he doesn’t live in one place travel to several but only kill in one location. I can’t find examples of that apart from Colin Ireland.

    By the simple expedient of the killer being ship borne, he could easily find himself killing in the East End and yet not live there

    If our Sexual Predator is ship bourne then we would expect attacks to take place where our suspect had opportunity. So kills at the various ports the ship moored at and in Red-light districts closest to that ship dock. What we wouldn’t see is our sailor Jack being a very good boy and bottling it all up until he finally made it to his favorite White chapel haunt. Sexual Predators don’t work like that.

    You are giving modern examples anyway Jeff, whereas the transport and victims available to JtR might well affect his travel arrangements

    I give modern examples, as until JtR there are very few documented examples although I’m sure they existed. Even modern examples are rare and few a far between. However whether they are traveling the world by Jumbo Jet or On foot, my premise is that they will think and act in the same way, They’ll simply do it, like Saville, over a wider distance.

    So I don’t see that if Sickert forinstance is a sexual predator that he leaves Dieppe France, travels back to White chapel. Kills and returns to France, when there must be close abundant prey in Dieppe, Indeed you might ague that our Fox isn’t going to far from prey wherever he goes.

    So if Jack is a killer that travels by coach or Train even Boat, then we expect to see kills over a wide area.

    Maybrick raises some interesting questions as I’m sure someone hoisted the idea that a series of Ripper like killings took place in America while he was there. And that is exactly what we would expect. Where I have problems is our Maybrick ‘Fox’ living in Liverpool where there is a large supply of prey and NO attacks. Indeed I seem to remember that Maybrick Traveled to several places on Business other than London and if he was the Ripper we’d expect kills here also..

    So my conclusion for Jack living in White chapel based on a ‘Saville ‘Fox’ model is that we have no Ripper attacks outside the area. And if Jack lived outside and traveled we’d expect a wider spread of victims de4pending on how he traveled.

    I hope that clarifies my premise a little better. Thank you for being patient

    Yours Jeff

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Cris Malone View Post
      The only leisure time available?

      Why would anyone risk killing in the street, no matter where they are from? A more disciplined killer could have played the field much more carefully if he chose and every victim could have been like Kelly. There were plenty of Miller's Courts, in various economic levels, all over London. The Ratcliffe Highway area was full of places that harbored tenements like this, and even more alleys, byways and secluded courtyards, yet no murder of this kind took place there (excluding the Pinchin St. Torso murder which could have been committed anywhere.)

      For some reason these murders were highly localized.
      For some reason all of the victims were at the very lowest strata of society.
      And for some reason they were continually perpetrated under some of the highest risks known in the annals of crime.

      Someone of the economic class of a Maybrick or a Druitt could afford to prey on women who would have presented much lesser risks and still gain the desired effect, and there were plenty of opportunities and a better chance for a rapid escape to a base for a merchant seaman to operate around said Ratcliffe Highway or even Poplar. And if the murderer of Catherine Eddowes was any of the above, why did he apparently head back into Spitafields?

      Are these not fairly substantial clues?

      So, not to derail Jeff's thread here... but in considering location, why were these murders committed where they were?
      Hi Chris

      Yes I agree. I'm not arguing anything new here. Indeed Martin Fido argued for Black lion Sq as a base which makes sense to me. And Donald Rumblow that the killer lived in Dorset street. Both these guys really understood the Geography of the period and the Whichapel area.

      The attack on Emma Smith at the dead centre of teh other murders hs always had me on the side of Walter Drew.

      The stab wounds and the locations are the only real evidence we have

      Yours Jeff

      Comment


      • #18
        Thanks Jeff

        I think you could have mentioned the timing of the murders as they provide the most compelling evidence that JtR was local - being on the streets in the early hours of the morning

        However, IMO, a stranger to the area with no local abode at all might also be wandering about at those hours

        There is a question as to why JtR attacked within a relatively small area and we would like to know how and why JtR was in the East End

        The possible explanations for this are numerous

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Nemo View Post
          Thanks Jeff

          I think you could have mentioned the timing of the murders as they provide the most compelling evidence that JtR was local - being on the streets in the early hours of the morning
          Certainly I think the timings are important. Whether you can conclude that the indicate he lived in Whitchapel I'm not so certain.

          I'd use the Saville 'Fox' premise to dismiss Bury, who lives in Poplar and travels by cart and also Druit, who could after all have murdered Chapman caught a train out of Cannon Street and played Cricket that morning.

          Originally posted by Nemo View Post
          However, IMO, a stranger to the area with no local abode at all might also be wandering about at those hours

          There is a question as to why JtR attacked within a relatively small area and we would like to know how and why JtR was in the East End

          The possible explanations for this are numerous
          They are numerous indeed. What I'm questioning is are they PROBABLE?

          If you have a killer outside Whitchapel with a base out side Whitchapel (And i understand each needs to be considered individually) You need to ask the question Why Whitechapel? When there were almost certainly other areas that individual suspect could have headed for..

          Lets take Prince Eddie for instance. If he is indeed a sexual Predator why doesnt he attack woman in cities close to Sandringham? Or while he's travelling to India..

          And if revenge is a supposed motivation (Syphilis) Why only attack woman in Whitchapel why not all whores carrying the desease..?

          Unless this is a conspiracy to bring a Catholic child to the thrown.. and then we are in the realms of Hollywood. Fantasy fiction so far out side the realms of possibility that they enter the 'silly' zone along with Aliens from outer space.

          That said, I have caveated my statement with Colin Ireland there are examples of rare contradiction and one might also question Mark Dixie if you think him a serial killer and sexual predator in he same vain?

          Yours Jeff

          Comment


          • #20
            Hi Jeff

            It's only speculation but there was talkof the area in some detail after the brutal murder of Martha Tabram

            This murder being linked with Fairy Fay and Emma Smith as a series producing a character tentatively referred to as the Whitechapel murderer and subsequently "Leather Apron"

            In describing the conditions of the East End there had been mention of the alleyways and darkness, the general criminality and degradation, the availability of victims and the like

            This alone could encourage a killer living outside the area to travel to Whitechapel to "operate"

            The killer would have soon noticed that the local area would be searched and people questioned rather than a national search conducted, sowhy not kill in that area - possibly far away from his "base"

            The location of the apron and GSG for example could indicate the killer was attempting to bring police scrutiny to the residents of Goulston St and in no way represented a direction of travel to his base or wherever

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Jeff Leahy View Post

              Maybrick raises some interesting questions as Im sure someone hoisted the idea that a series of Ripper like killings took place in America while he was there. And that is exactly what we would expect. Where I have problems is our Maybrick Fox living in Liverpool where there is a large supply of prey and NO attacks. Indeed I seem to remember that Maybrick Traveled to several places on Business other than London and if he was the Ripper wed expect kills here also..
              I think we can put to rest the idea of Maybrick as the Austin servant girl killer or whatever he was called.

              Maybrick was a frequent visitor to Whitechapel.


              His mistress/wife lived at 55 Bromley Street as well as one other address in Whitechapel. They had 4-5 children together. The relationship lasted for 20 years.

              In 1871 Maybrick went into business with Gustavus A. Witt in Knowsley Buildings, Tithebarn Street, Liverpool. Witt, by 1888, was running a London office in a tiny street called Cullum Street, which was about 400 yards from Mitre Square.


              The office was at 4 Cullum Street to be precise. And his brother was at Wellington Mansions.

              Not trying to turn this into a Maybrick thread but I am just saying it is a matter of historical record that Maybrick had ties to Whitechapel London and was a frequent visitor.

              Obviously one is free to dismiss the Diary and Maybrick as the Ripper. But the real James Maybrick knew Whitechapel intimately.

              If you are willing to consider a commuting killer, someone like this may very well fit the bill. Again, put the Diary controversy to the side for a minute and give it a thought.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by SirRobertAnderson View Post
                I think we can put to rest the idea of Maybrick as the Austin servant girl killer or whatever he was called.

                Maybrick was a frequent visitor to Whitechapel.


                His mistress/wife lived at 55 Bromley Street as well as one other address in Whitechapel. They had 4-5 children together. The relationship lasted for 20 years.

                In 1871 Maybrick went into business with Gustavus A. Witt in Knowsley Buildings, Tithebarn Street, Liverpool. Witt, by 1888, was running a London office in a tiny street called Cullum Street, which was about 400 yards from Mitre Square.


                The office was at 4 Cullum Street to be precise. And his brother was at Wellington Mansions.

                Not trying to turn this into a Maybrick thread but I am just saying it is a matter of historical record that Maybrick had ties to Whitechapel London and was a frequent visitor.

                Obviously one is free to dismiss the Diary and Maybrick as the Ripper. But the real James Maybrick knew Whitechapel intimately.

                If you are willing to consider a commuting killer, someone like this may very well fit the bill. Again, put the Diary controversy to the side for a minute and give it a thought.
                Not sure on that Robert my info was simply Maybrick murdred a series of coloured women in the States..

                But I don't dispute Maybrick had a base in the Eastend..

                My piont is simply that he had a base in Liverpool, and without Jack style killings in Liverpool you dont have JtR

                Indeed if Maybrick was JtR we would have JtR killings where ever he went..

                So anywhere where he stopped on business, one presumes at least Manchester..

                But Nothing

                Conclusion, even if he wrote the diary he was not Jack the Ripper

                Or indeed any other suspect, anyone can name, outside of Whitecahpel

                Yours Jeff

                Comment


                • #23
                  Hi Jeff

                  I don't see your problem with a travelling killer who doesn't kill in his home area

                  If someone lived in town A and travelled regularly to town B where they found an ideal victim pool, then...you know the rest

                  Maybrick travelled from Liverpool to the East End and, it is implied, was familiar with the street layout, and was also fully aware of the nature of the women to be found in that area

                  I see no problem with him committing murder on the unfortunates in that localised area and returning/escaping to Liverpool

                  IIRC the Diary implies a leisurely return to Liverpool by train, not a rushed escape shortly after the murder, him probably making use of premises in the East End

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Jeff Leahy View Post

                    My piont is simply that he had a base in Liverpool, and without Jack style killings in Liverpool you dont have JtR

                    Indeed if Maybrick was JtR we would have JtR killings where ever he went..
                    I'm not following you. Let's leave Maybrick aside for the moment.

                    Why couldn't a SK very familiar with one area kill there and leave his home town totally out of the picture?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      OK , I will try and spell it out..

                      Jimmy Saville was a sexual predator..

                      We now know he committed sexual abuse crimes through out his life

                      There is ABSOLUTELY NO suggestion he commited those crimes in only one place, indeed the exact opposite. Saville committed crimes where ever he was and where ever he had 'dens' or 'bases' like the old fox he was..

                      Jack the Ripper opporated like Saville

                      Maybrick if he only killed in Whitchapel did not

                      Thats because in all PROBABILITY he was NOT Jack the Ripper

                      if he was he would have attacked in Liverpool.. and around the country which he didnt

                      Its not in a SK's nature to only commit crime in one place.. An SK is like an Urban 'Fox' thats just his nature, like all sexual predators? He cant resist his nature.. Sex offenders, offend all the time and where ever they are!

                      Its not Maybricks conection to the East end that suggests he might not be JtR, its his obvious connection to other places where JtR crimes did NOT happen that excludes him

                      YOurs Jeff

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Jeff Leahy View Post
                        OK , I will try and spell it out..

                        Jimmy Saville was a sexual predator..

                        We now know he committed sexual abuse crimes through out his life

                        There is ABSOLUTELY NO suggestion he commited those crimes in only one place, indeed the exact opposite. Saville committed crimes where ever he was and where e ver he had dens like the old fox he was..

                        Jack the Ripper opporated like Saville

                        Maybrick if he only killed in Whitchapel did not

                        Thats because in all PROBABILITY he was NOT Jack the Ripper

                        if he was he would have attacked in Liverpool

                        YOurs Jeff
                        I'm really not following you Jeff. Not trying to be difficult.

                        I kinda hate talking about Maybrick outside of the Maybrick threads because the little bastard tends to highjack things.

                        But why couldn't he have chosen to kill somewhere other than his home town if he had once lived in or near that chosen area and visited it on a semi-regular basis?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Jeff Leahy View Post
                          Its not in a SK's nature to only commit crime in one place.. An SK is like an Urban 'Fox' thats just his nature, like all sexual predators? He cant resist his nature.. Sex offenders, offend all the time and where ever they are!
                          Hi Jeff

                          Indeed one of the thoughts about a number of the unsolved apparent crimes by serial killers in the United States is that the murders were committed by long-distance truck drivers or drifters that were able to move from place to place and pick up victims wherever they went. Of course, we might think here as well of the British serial killer Peter Sutcliffe, the Yorkshire Ripper, who worked as a long-distance lorry driver, who fits this model.

                          Best regards

                          Chris
                          Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
                          https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

                          Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
                          Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Chris G. View Post
                            Hi Jeff

                            Indeed one of the thoughts about a number of the unsolved apparent crimes by serial killers in the United States is that the murders were committed by long-distance truck drivers or drifters that were able to move from place to place and pick up victims wherever they went.
                            Are you saying this argues against the commuter killer or for? I'm confused.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Chris G. View Post
                              Hi Jeff

                              Indeed one of the thoughts about a number of the unsolved apparent crimes by serial killers in the United States is that the murders were committed by long-distance truck drivers or drifters that were able to move from place to place and pick up victims wherever they went. Of course, we might think here as well of the British serial killer Peter Sutcliffe, the Yorkshire Ripper, who worked as a long-distance lorry driver, who fits this model.

                              Originally posted by SirRobertAnderson View Post
                              Are you saying this argues against the commuter killer or for? I'm confused.
                              Needless to say, lorry driver or drifter serial killers aren't commuters, Bob. They are people who kill wherever they go.
                              Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
                              https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

                              Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
                              Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by SirRobertAnderson View Post
                                I'm really not following you Jeff. Not trying to be difficult.

                                I kinda hate talking about Maybrick outside of the Maybrick threads because the little bastard tends to highjack things.

                                But why couldn't he have chosen to kill somewhere other than his home town if he had once lived in or near that chosen area and visited it on a semi-regular basis?
                                Yes I know Maybrick usually causes problems as everything gets bogged down in the Diary debate. But in this context the Diary is irrelevant. Maybrick can be considered in this context. And while I agree he had a base and therefore opportunity to kill in the East End, what I find strange is why only the East end.

                                Its like saying someone is only a 'smoker' when they are in London, the moment they travel to Scotland the cigerette cravings stop.. I just dont see that.. So if Maybrick was Jack where are the killings else where?

                                Although as I said before, I'm certain these claims have been made about Maybrick, not only a series of murdered Black women in the States but also a kill in Mancester? (I must admit I'm not a Maybrick expert) But certainly Patricia Cornwall understood this and tried to pin a series of murders including the Camden Murder on Sickert. I must say I found these unconvincing. JtR had a distinctive style and taste for mutilation and I dont think there is any real evidence he ever opporated outside Whitchapel although I'm happy to consider a wider victim count than most Ripperologists.

                                As well as Sutcliffe it occurred to me that Dennis Nealson, if you take into account the early Post Office robberies fits the Saville 'Fox' model pretty well also..

                                Again travelling to his victims from a central base in a radial attack. I believe he also moved at one point. I need to check.

                                But My key point here is that if you have Jack teh Ripper living outside of Whitchapel then you would excpect other JtR style killings not only where that suspect lives. In Maybricks case Liverpool. But also attacks in other places where easy prey or victims are also available and accessable to that suspect..

                                The only example of a serial killer living in one place, and travelling to only one specific location to kill I can find is Colin Ireland, he he only killed three as far as we know.

                                The other problem of course is when Serial killers are captured its often hard to prove other murders took place. Fred West is a good example of this, police have never fully explained his early life or potencial killings, his murder count could be a lot higher?

                                I know Mark Dixie was linked to several attacks and murders in Australia during the time he was there but I dont believe he has ever been charged.

                                I think there are several other attacks that have been linked and never proved to Sutcliffe.

                                Anyway better dash things to do

                                Yours Jeff

                                PS Just off thread because I cant comment on Maybrick threads, but if Sicket didnt forge the diary, wouldnt he have done more doodles and pics as per the guest book? Sorry off topic I know but saw the posts.

                                Comment

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