Maria Louisa Roulson (aka Old Ma Lechmere)

[Gary Barnett]

No but JAL was relatively prominent in that business for a while. The Hereford bootmaking fraternity must have been a small world and I'd guess they would cross fertilise to a degree with the Northants focal point and would would seep back about the Hereford guy now working in Northants via industry gossip.

Perhaps. I don’t see JAL as some kind of shrinking violet who would keep his past exploits to himself, but I’m not sure to what extent Northants was a focal point for the industry as a whole. There were some large tanneries there - and at a later date an HB knacker’s yard just over the border in Hunts. But would a small craftsman boot/shoe maker in Hereford have had much to do with the large scale manufacturers in Northants?

An interesting topic for future consideration.

My dad’s birth was registered in a Northants registration district, although he was born just over the border in Hunts. His POB is now in Cambs and the registrar wouldn’t have it that it should say POB Hunts on his death cert. It was a real ‘computer says no’ situation and my poor wife had to choose between Northants and Cambs while I was screaming Hunts (or something that sounded like that) down the phone. She opted for the lesser of two evils, Northants.

[Gary Barnett]

I posted this over on CB as part of an ongoing civilised debate about the Lechmere/Cross name anomaly:

‘While Maria was living in Tiger Bay with the boy constable she had bigamously married, the executor of her father’s will, the Reverend Archer Clive*, was entertaining Lord Palmerston, the Prime Minister, at Whitfield, which had been Maria’s childhood home.

The Rev. A. C. was one of those in Hereford who would have instantly recognised the unique name of Charles Allen Lechmere.

*Archer Clive was very much alive in 1876 when, it seems, a certain Pickfords carman withheld his unique name in court. He had sadly passed by 1888, but the Lechmere name would have still resonated in Herefordshire.’

[Edward Stow]

Northampton was and to an extent still is the focal point of the world-wide footwear industry.
That is almost certainly what drew JAL to Northampton to revive his fortunes. I would guess that all provincial footwear operatives kept a weathered eye on the Northampton trade.

I have noticed your civilised debate in another place.

[Gary Barnett]

I posted this over on CB as part of an ongoing civilised debate about the Lechmere/Cross name anomaly:

‘While Maria was living in Tiger Bay with the boy constable she had bigamously married, the executor of her father’s will, the Reverend Archer Clive*, was entertaining Lord Palmerston, the Prime Minister, at Whitfield, which had been Maria’s childhood home.

The Rev. A. C. was one of those in Hereford who would have instantly recognised the unique name of Charles Allen Lechmere.

*Archer Clive was very much alive in 1876 when, it seems, a certain Pickfords carman withheld his unique name in court. He had sadly passed by 1888, but the Lechmere name would have still resonated in Herefordshire.’

One last thing (for the time being).

The statue to George Cornewall Lewis was erected in 1864, the year after his death. He had been the High Steward of the City of Hereford and his successor was the Reverend Archer Clive. The Rev A. C. was at the very top of Herefordshire Society. Charles ‘Cross’’s mum presumably knew him personally.

[Edward Stow]

Not as at the top as the Fownhope Lechmere's, surely.

Did Mrs Bridges or Mr Hudson 'know' the Bellamy family personally?
Their knowledge of each other was somewhat unequal. I doubt the Clives took too much notice of the perigrenations of the children of their staff, even old retainers.

[Gary Barnett]

Not as at the top as the Fownhope Lechmere's, surely.

Did Mrs Bridges or Mr Hudson 'know' the Bellamy family personally?
Their knowledge of each other was somewhat unequal. I doubt the Clives took too much notice of the perigrenations of the children of their staff, even old retainers.

What makes you think the Clives were beneath the Lechmeres in the Herefordshire pecking order?

Yes, indeed, they weren’t social equals, but she had been born and brought up on his father’s estate and he was the executor of her father’s will. I’ve yet to establish where/what Whitfield Lodge was. There are references to Edward Bolton Clive living at Whitfield Lodge. Was it separate from the big house known as just ‘Whitfield’?

I imagine there would also have been a social gulf between TC and Maria. In 1846, JAL was advertising for no less than 5 journeymen boot/shoe makers. I don’t imagine TC’s family to have been at that level.

More to research!

[Edward Stow]

I was joking about the Fownhope Lechmere's - although they were one of Herefordshire's more prominent families.
I think I drove around or up to the Whitfield estate a few years ago on my last visit but I couldn't identify the lodge.

Maria was upper working class - Thomas Cross lower working class.
The area where Thomas Cross was from was rural poor. A scruffy area.

[Gary Barnett]

I was joking about the Fownhope Lechmere's - although they were one of Herefordshire's more prominent families.
I think I drove around or up to the Whitfield estate a few years ago on my last visit but I couldn't identify the lodge.

Maria was upper working class - Thomas Cross lower working class.
The area where Thomas Cross was from was rural poor. A scruffy area.

Thomas Roulson was described as a ‘yeoman’ in his will. In addition to the usual sense of a small landowner/farmer, I believe the term was applied to senior servants in noble houses. Roulson received the highest bequest of all EBC’s servants in his will.

That dosh, plus whatever else TR had managed to squirrel away during his 35 years with the seemingly generous Clives ended up with Maria and her two sisters. And possibly Maria received a widow’s pension from the Met, seeing that she was TC’s lawfully wedded wife. ;-)

[Edward Stow]

Pensions were discretionary then and she didnt get one.

[Gary Barnett]

Pensions were discretionary then and she didnt get one.

I wonder why?

[Edward Stow]

I guess because at that time they were rarely given and usually for particularly meritous service.

[Gary Barnett]

Just for the record:


Thomas Cross - Age Discrepancies


Christening: 31st July, 1836

1841 Census (6th June): Age 5

1851 Census (30th March): Age 14

1861 Census (7th April): Age 34!

Marriage (25th Feb, 1858): Age 23

Death (18th Dec, 1869): Age 34


Assuming the ages on the two earlier censuses are accurate, TC was born somewhere between 31/3/36 and 6/6/36. The Christening date would suggest most likely closer to 6/6/36.

So, his age was bumped up by 2 years on his marriage cert and 1 year on his death cert.

He was just 21 when he and Maria married, not 23 as recorded on the certificate. And at the time he was already a serving Met police officer.

As for the 1861 census… god only knows what went on there.

The question arises, if Ma was prepared to marry TC when he was just 21, when did their relationship begin? And where, I suppose.

[Gary Barnett]

My interest in this lady has recently been revitalised. The reason I started researching her was to question whether the theory that she may have had a malign influence on her son had any substance.

[Mark J D]

My interest in this lady has recently been revitalised. The reason I started researching her was to question whether the theory that she may have had a malign influence on her son had any substance.

Do we have a full list of the addresses she lived at? I'm wondering how many times she moved with kids in tow. Criminologist Gareth Norris spoke of 'instability of residence' (if memory serves) in the Lechmere documentary.

You know, I'd actually be very interested in an Old Ma Lechmere timeline that listed all her exploits...

Bests,

Mark D.

[Gary Barnett]

Do we have a full list of the addresses she lived at? I'm wondering how many times she moved with kids in tow. Criminologist Gareth Norris spoke of 'instability of residence' (if memory serves) in the Lechmere documentary.

You know, I'd actually be very interested in an Old Ma Lechmere timeline that listed all her exploits...

Bests,

Mark D.

She was born at the (a) Lodge at Whitfield, the country estate of Edward Bolton Clive in Herefordshire. That was also the address given when she was married, so she most likely grew up on the Whitfield Estate. Certainly her father had worked as a servant, ultimately butler, there all her life until she married. After she married, she presumably lived with her husband above his shop in St Peter’s Street, Hereford. After JAL’s business went tits up, the next record we have is of CAL being Christened in Soho, London in 1849. By 1851, she’s back in Hereford in Blue School Lane. She’s recorded on the census as the head of the household, so JAL was seemingly absent at that time, but we have no idea when she last saw him or was aware that he was alive. Then there’s a gap until she pops up in the East End in 1858. There are a few moves after that, but basically she remains in SGE/Wapping for almost half a century. There is already a timeline of the family’s long connection to a small corner of St Matthew, Pell Street. I’ll add the other stuff to that and post it here.