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Assault By John Morgenstern

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
    Gary, it makes me think that must have been the court calendar spelling and just copied over by the newspapers?
    Yes, the two reports were obviously written independently. I've run all the variations of Morganstern I can think of through the Digital Panopticon but no joy so far.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
      Anna, there are a lot of things said about events surrounding Elizabeth Phoenix, the Morgensterns and related incidents that I think are built on assumptions. For instance, some people think that MJK lived with Adrianus Morgenstern because his job was as a gas stoker and there's a mention of gas in relation to Elizabeth Phoenix saying that MJK lived with her brother in law near Stepney Gasworks. No one ever said that the Morgenstern MJK lived with was an actual gas stoker did they?

      Alongside that comes the idea that Adrianus Morgenstern was romantically involved with MJK, but again, is there a source for that ? Maybe there is but I don't recall one.

      Elizabeth Phoenix (who is said to have lived with Adrianus and was Elizabeth Felix )said that MJK lived in the house of her brother in law. Wouldn't that be referring to John Morgenstern who we know lived on Pennington Street with Mrs Boeki/Bouquest/Bluma?
      Also the notion that Mrs McCarthy/Carthy was definitely a sister in law to Elizabeth Phoenix is assumed. Elizabeth Phoenix said that MJK lived at the house of her [Elizabeth's] brother in law. She didn't say the Mrs McCarthy/Carthy who came forward was her sister in law.

      There are a couple of puzzles too. The woman named McCarthy who in 1891 lived at the exact same address in Bow Common Lane that Elizabeth Phoenix gave in 1888, had, in 1871, lived at a different address with a woman named Joanna Phoenix who I have been unable to trace after 1871.

      I hope I got these right as they are from memory. But just a couple of things that I think are taken for granted sometimes.

      I think it was Stewart Evans who first mentioned the Dutch Morgenstern brothers as possibles for 'Morganstone'.. A Dutch researcher whose name escapes me also did a lot of work on the Morgenstern brothers after SPE picked the brothers up. The Sheldens discovered the Morgenstern family's link to Mrs Boeuki, Elizabeth Felix and Pennington Street.
      Since two Phoenixes have been found I wonder if Phoenix was an alias consisting of a few slipped letters? If questioned, the person who gave information could insist there was a simple mistake in spelling. Meanwhile the sounds in English are just enough different that Felix would not immediately come to mind. Fenwick comes to mind with more ease.

      Has Bart Droog ever opined on any of this with the Morgensterns? Maybe there is something in Dutch spelling or pronunciation that would give us clues about Phoenix/Falk/Felix connections?

      I have an idea MJK "lived with" brother-in-law John and Mrs. B. as an employee. Maybe the "box of costly dresses" came in when Mary didn't earn enough. Maybe life was tough at that establishment and that is why she drank and was abusive when she drank. Just my opinion. (Though she was later known to have drunken rows with Joe B.)
      The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
        Since two Phoenixes have been found I wonder if Phoenix was an alias consisting of a few slipped letters? If questioned, the person who gave information could insist there was a simple mistake in spelling. Meanwhile the sounds in English are just enough different that Felix would not immediately come to mind. Fenwick comes to mind with more ease.

        Has Bart Droog ever opined on any of this with the Morgensterns? Maybe there is something in Dutch spelling or pronunciation that would give us clues about Phoenix/Falk/Felix connections?

        I have an idea MJK "lived with" brother-in-law John and Mrs. B. as an employee. Maybe the "box of costly dresses" came in when Mary didn't earn enough. Maybe life was tough at that establishment and that is why she drank and was abusive when she drank. Just my opinion. (Though she was later known to have drunken rows with Joe B.)
        Phoenix was a surname in use all over the UK at the time but I mentioned Joanna Phoenix simply because of her connection to the Mrs McCarthy at Bow Common Lane. Phennix is also used as well as Fennix as a variation. Any of these spellings could also easily be a mishearing of Felix though.
        The people with the surname Phoenix tend to have Irish (Joanna was Irish)and English origins, whilst the Dutch woman that John Morgenstern married was named Valks but her immediate family are also documented using the variations Falks and Felix, but not Phoenix.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
          Yes, the two reports were obviously written independently. I've run all the variations of Morganstern I can think of through the Digital Panopticon but no joy so far.
          Yes, the only one who seems to come up is Henry/Harry whose details tally well with those of the son of another one of the Morgenstern brothers, Marin/Maryan.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
            Yes, the only one who seems to come up is Henry/Harry whose details tally well with those of the son of another one of the Morgenstern brothers, Marin/Maryan.
            The tailor?

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
              The tailor?
              It isn't Maran's son I don't think. He was a yardman at a gas works in 1901. Harry probably came from one of the Eastern European Jewish families.

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              • #37
                Hello Gary,

                I wonder if I am correct staying that the Morgenstern family were of the Jewish faith?
                (I judge this by the amount of predominantly Jewish female first names in the East End in the Morgenstern family)


                Best wishes


                Phil
                from 1905...to 19.05..it was written in the stars

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Phil Carter View Post
                  Hello Gary,

                  I wonder if I am correct staying that the Morgenstern family were of the Jewish faith?
                  (I judge this by the amount of predominantly Jewish female first names in the East End in the Morgenstern family)


                  Best wishes


                  Phil
                  Hi Phil,

                  I think they attended the RC church in the Commercial Road.

                  Gary

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Phil. the Dutch brothers Adrianus, Maran and John who had connections to Pennington Street and Limehouse were most likely of Catholic persuasion.
                    I posted a large number of records where they married, were witnesses to marriage or godparents at baptisms at St Mary and Michaels RC church Commercial Rd.

                    They are mostly here along with some Dutch records:
                    https://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=27160

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                      Phil. the Dutch brothers Adrianus, Maran and John who had connections to Pennington Street and Limehouse were most likely of Catholic persuasion.
                      I posted a large number of records where they married, were witnesses to marriage or godparents at baptisms at St Mary and Michaels RC church Commercial Rd.

                      They are mostly here along with some Dutch records:
                      https://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=27160
                      Thank you kindly


                      Phil
                      from 1905...to 19.05..it was written in the stars

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                        Hi Phil,

                        I think they attended the RC church in the Commercial Road.

                        Gary
                        Thank you kindly


                        Phil
                        from 1905...to 19.05..it was written in the stars

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                          Interesting extra detail, Debs. Still the same odd spelling, Morgenstren.
                          Debs,

                          I think you missed a bit:

                          Click image for larger version

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                          In summary,

                          Annie Walker was struck in the mouth; struck on the back of the head and knocked to the floor then kicked; struck with a poker.

                          Norah McCarthy was kicked in the leg and stabbed in the head.

                          Emma Bean was kicked in the ‘lower part of the stomach’.

                          At some point in all this, the assailant paused to remove his coat and vest.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Is what we have here, Jo(hannes) Morgenstern carrying out a punishment beating on an ‘unfortunate’ who crossed Mrs Buki and kicking and stabbing two others who dared to intervene?

                            If so, did his writ run in Jamaica Passage?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                              Debs,

                              I think you missed a bit:

                              [ATTACH]19021[/ATTACH]


                              In summary,

                              Annie Walker was struck in the mouth; struck on the back of the back of the head and knocked to the floor then kicked; struck with a poker.

                              Norah McCarthy was kicked in the leg and stabbed in the head.

                              Emma Bean was kicked in the ‘lower part of the stomach’.

                              At some point in all this, the assailant paused to remove his coat and vest.
                              Thanks, Gary.
                              The last line is pretty chilling, this brutality wasn't heat of the moment then? (not that that would make it excusable) but more cold and calculating?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I have two observations here. John "Morgenstren" was leaving a beer hall in Limehouse with the "woman he lived with". Considering the location and violence of the evening, is it possible the "woman he lived with" was other than Mrs. Buki, mother of his children? Might he have had a female companion in Limehouse?

                                Second, he was defended in court. I am not sure how all that works in the British system though I have a rough idea about solicitors and barristers. Would this attorney have been hired and chosen by the defendant or would he have been assigned or picked up at the court? If he was the defendant's personal attorney that might make an interesting study in itself. Here in the U.S. some attorneys get reputations for defending nasty clients like mafia members. If that general idea would pertain to an English barrister it might be interesting to see who else he defended for what kind of crimes.
                                The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                                Comment

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