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  • #46
    The last line is pretty chilling, this brutality wasn't heat of the moment then? (not that that would make it excusable) but more cold and calculating?
    -Debs-

    Sounds to me like someone capable of doing something more than kicking a woman and stabbing her in public.
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    • #47
      The impression I got from the original article was that this "Morgenstren" guy was a pimp or bully and was 'disciplining' a woman in his employ. That he attacked other women who helped the first kind of reinforces this idea, he wasn't going to lose face with other unfortunates. Of course this is purely guess and impression.

      However another guess could be that when this guy got liquored up he abused women.

      I always wondered if Mary's "Blotchy" guest could have been a gas stoker and that the--I presume--heat experienced in that work led to the blotchy face. We could ponder if men or brothers from that area and profession were drinking in Mary's neighborhood that night.
      The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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      • #48
        The last time I glanced at this story there was something about this that made me think it may be a different John Morgenstern but I don't remember what that was now.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
          Thanks, Gary.
          The last line is pretty chilling, this brutality wasn't heat of the moment then? (not that that would make it excusable) but more cold and calculating?
          That’s how it struck me, Debs - just another day at the office.

          I read somewhere that Jamaica Passage was known as ‘The Black Hole’ and was essentially a street of brothels. Now, presumably these brothels had their own bullies, so either Mr Morgenstren was the toughest bloke in the area and the bullies wouldn’t go near him or he was one of the bullies for the Passage.

          If this is the man with whom MJK was living a few years earlier, then the chances are that when she was in her cups and ‘abusive’ she may well have felt the back of his hand.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
            The impression I got from the original article was that this "Morgenstren" guy was a pimp or bully and was 'disciplining' a woman in his employ. That he attacked other women who helped the first kind of reinforces this idea, he wasn't going to lose face with other unfortunates. Of course this is purely guess and impression.

            However another guess could be that when this guy got liquored up he abused women.

            I always wondered if Mary's "Blotchy" guest could have been a gas stoker and that the--I presume--heat experienced in that work led to the blotchy face. We could ponder if men or brothers from that area and profession were drinking in Mary's neighborhood that night.
            Anna,

            As I mentioned in my reply to Debs below, the Passage brothels would have had their bullies, so it’s unlikely that an outsider would have been allowed to start abusing the women there without being taken on by them. And this guy felt comfortable enough to take off his coat and waistcoat before getting stuck in to Annie W.

            I once found a report of a man with carroty whiskers abusing a prostitute in this area. I’ll see if I can dig it out.

            As for Mrs Buki, she and JM were seemingly still together in the WIDR in 1891.

            Gary

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
              The last line is pretty chilling, this brutality wasn't heat of the moment then? (not that that would make it excusable) but more cold and calculating?
              -Debs-

              Sounds to me like someone capable of doing something more than kicking a woman and stabbing her in public.
              Indeed, How. This was a great find!

              By the way, the previous year ( Sept., 1888) another resident of 9, Jamaica Passage was the subject of a vicious attack after having left a WIDR beer shop:

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                The last time I glanced at this story there was something about this that made me think it may be a different John Morgenstern but I don't remember what that was now.
                Was it the age, Debs?

                The location is very close to Rich Street and 46 WIDR. Two JMs living within a few streets of each other would be a bit of a coincidence.

                This has spurred me into looking back at other attacks in Rich Street and the Brescher axe attack on Lottie Jones at 79, Pennington Street.

                Brescher and his landlord, John Miller were both skin dyers. I wonder if they moved in the same circles as JM, the skin dresser? I had the idea that Brescher was sweet on Lottie and objected to her spending her money on other people in the Swedish Flag. But it’s possible that what he objected to was her not earning money.

                There’s another story of a woman who left her ‘landlady’ elsewhere in Limehouse and moved to Rich Street. The landlady tracked her down and threw vitriol at her.

                And then there was the Rich Street prostitute who was thrown down the stairs and stamped upon for not bringing enough money home. She subsequently died of her injuries.

                If I can drag myself away from the Brexit debates on the telly, I’ll dig some of these out and post them.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                  Was it the age, Debs?

                  The location is very close to Rich Street and 46 WIDR. Two JMs living within a few streets of each other would be a bit of a coincidence.

                  This has spurred me into looking back at other attacks in Rich Street and the Brescher axe attack on Lottie Jones at 79, Pennington Street.

                  Brescher and his landlord, John Miller were both skin dyers. I wonder if they moved in the same circles as JM, the skin dresser? I had the idea that Brescher was sweet on Lottie and objected to her spending her money on other people in the Swedish Flag. But it’s possible that what he objected to was her not earning money.

                  There’s another story of a woman who left her ‘landlady’ elsewhere in Limehouse and moved to Rich Street. The landlady tracked her down and threw vitriol at her.

                  And then there was the Rich Street prostitute who was thrown down the stairs and stamped upon for not bringing enough money home. She subsequently died of her injuries.

                  If I can drag myself away from the Brexit debates on the telly, I’ll dig some of these out and post them.
                  It could have been the age, Gary but I thought it might have been something else I looked at that put me off, but if it was, I don't remember what that was now.
                  It's another one of those topics I need to refresh my memory on!

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                  • #54
                    It was Rich Street resident, Charlotte Spencer who claimed to have been attacked by Minnie Hastings and a ‘carroty man’ (a man with carroty whiskers) in Limehouse in 1882. She died of her injuries.

                    I hope this from Lloyds Weekly of 16/4/1882 is legible:

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                    • #55
                      This is the vitriol-throwing incident from The Standard of 1st Feb., 1881. Rich Street features again and reading between the lines the attack was as a result of the victim leaving one ‘bad house’ and moving to another.

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                      Was it Mrs McCarthy who spoke of hearing reports of MJK leading a ‘gay life’ in Aldgate?

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                        Anna,

                        As I mentioned in my reply to Debs below, the Passage brothels would have had their bullies, so it’s unlikely that an outsider would have been allowed to start abusing the women there without being taken on by them. And this guy felt comfortable enough to take off his coat and waistcoat before getting stuck in to Annie W.

                        I once found a report of a man with carroty whiskers abusing a prostitute in this area. I’ll see if I can dig it out.

                        As for Mrs Buki, she and JM were seemingly still together in the WIDR in 1891.

                        Gary
                        There is a tale that can be dug out of a discussion at Casebook that says Wilhelmina Morgenstern had said she lived at a brothel in Limehouse during part of her childhood. If there is any truth to that it certainly implies there was a brothel business within the family circle.

                        I do not write all I think because these were real people who have living relatives today. I wait and watch to see what comes up via people who know more than I do.

                        The JM in the articles may or may not be connected to anything. I think the JM we 'know' also was called John. I still wonder if Mary's 'other Joe' who ill used her could have been a Johannes. Maybe he toyed with Jo(e) or John as Anglicized names.

                        The fellow with the carroty whiskers mentioned in another article posted here is very interesting. Walter Dew wrote that the killer of Mary was the man who was seen with her, who had a brown beard! I think Dew is extremely inaccurate but his description of the man matched the time for Blotchy with the carroty moustache.
                        The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
                          There is a tale that can be dug out of a discussion at Casebook that says Wilhelmina Morgenstern had said she lived at a brothel in Limehouse during part of her childhood. If there is any truth to that it certainly implies there was a brothel business within the family circle.

                          I do not write all I think because these were real people who have living relatives today. I wait and watch to see what comes up via people who know more than I do.

                          The JM in the articles may or may not be connected to anything. I think the JM we 'know' also was called John. I still wonder if Mary's 'other Joe' who ill used her could have been a Johannes. Maybe he toyed with Jo(e) or John as Anglicized names.

                          The fellow with the carroty whiskers mentioned in another article posted here is very interesting. Walter Dew wrote that the killer of Mary was the man who was seen with her, who had a brown beard! I think Dew is extremely inaccurate but his description of the man matched the time for Blotchy with the carroty moustache.
                          The Wilhelmina anecdote was also discussed here. I think it is in Neal Shelden’s
                          book?

                          The Jo(hannes) possibility occurred to me, too. Given the rarity of the name and the very close geographical proximity, I’d be surprised if the two JM’s weren’t one and the same.

                          I’m sure there were a few carroty-whiskered blokes in the East End. I was more interested in highlighting the violence the women faced from various sources in the very streets in which the ‘Breezers Hill Mob’ operated.

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                          • #58
                            It just occurred to me that the house next door to 11, Jamaica Passage (13) was an opium den. Post 50 here:

                            http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....ich#post275718

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                              It could have been the age, Gary but I thought it might have been something else I looked at that put me off, but if it was, I don't remember what that was now.
                              It's another one of those topics I need to refresh my memory on!
                              It wasn't this John Morgenstern I was doubtful about being Mrs Buki's Morgenstern after all, it was the posts I made about young Harry and whether or not he was Marijn's son I was remembering! Little bit of a brain blip, sorry.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                                It wasn't this John Morgenstern I was doubtful about being Mrs Buki's Morgenstern after all, it was the posts I made about young Harry and whether or not he was Marijn's son I was remembering! Little bit of a brain blip, sorry.
                                Oh, good.

                                This map may be a bit blurry, but you can see Jamaica Passage running between Jamaica Place and Rich Street. And the triangular block to the right of Rich Street contains 46, (the Morgansterns) and 42 (McCarthy’s lodging house) WIDR.

                                I think it’s highly unlikely there were two JMs in that small area.

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