Assault By John Morgenstern

[Gary Barnett]

Also the same day exactly, and also in 1889, that an arrest warrant was issued for Lord Arthur Somerset for his involvement in the Cleveland Street Scandal.

Thanks, Jerry.

And I would be willing to bet a man named Smith boarded the Clapham omnibus that day. ;-)

Merry Christmas to you and yours.

[Jerry Dunlop]

Hi Gary,

The same day in 1901 that Robert Anderson received his knighthood.

Happy Christmas.

Simon

Also the same day exactly, and also in 1889, that an arrest warrant was issued for Lord Arthur Somerset for his involvement in the Cleveland Street Scandal.

[Gary Barnett]

Exactly a year before the Limehouse attacks a prostitute whose ‘landlord’ Morgenstern had been was cut to pieces by an unknown assailant. Shortly after the murder his sister-in-law had gone to the police to make it clear that the victim had left Morgenstern’s establishment two years prior to her killing, and added that she (the victim) was a troublesome drunk who was still actively prostituting herself.

[Gary Barnett]

Hi Gary,

The same day in 1901 that Robert Anderson received his knighthood.

Happy Christmas.

Simon

Was it? Well I never.

Happy Christmas to you and yours.

Gary

[Simon Wood]

Hi Gary,

The same day in 1901 that Robert Anderson received his knighthood.

Happy Christmas.

Simon

[Gary Barnett]

I’m not sure whether anyone has commented on the date of this attack. It occurred on Saturday the 9th November, 1889 …

[Gary Barnett]

The Morgenstern assaults just popped into my head and I immediately looked this thread up. Where else has this information been collated? Nowhere as far as I know.

This is the sort of thing we will lose if we can’t come up with a plan to at least archive the Forums.

[Pat Marshall]

Lloyds Sunday, October 3, 1880

Caroline Morganstern. Could be wilhemina ?

[Pat Marshall]

There is this Catherine Poole in 1885 London ?

[Howard Brown]

Bump Up

[Anna Morris]

Of course, in 1888, the entire west side of Breezer’s Hill was occupied by Gooch and Cousen’s newly-built wool warehouse, and over the next couple of decades, the eastern side would be demolished to make way for more of the same.

Did they store skins there as well as wool?

I think sheep skins can also be called fleece though that word can apply to the large pieces of *shorn wool. I wouldn't think raw skins would be stored in a wool warehouse. I assume there were tanneries or such in the East End that could have dealt with the first stages of preserving skins for leather or fur. *(Why doesn't SpellCheck like that word? Isn't that the correct term or is it too biblicaly archaic?)

Now I am curious about the broad range of "skin dresser". I could see similarities in both descriptions of skins. Maybe it was qualified that JM was a skin dresser for fur and maybe he was.

However all that sorts out I think we have much yet to discover about French ladies and Dutch brothel keepers who moved from in or near the West End to the East End. It always seems to me that Mary became involved with a web of foreign brothel owners and for a time she moved within that group but was it a friendly renting of rooms to unfortunates or was it something more businesslike? Was the French lady a French speaking Belgian? I don't necessarily think any of that has to do with Mary's demise but it might be possible to find a sadistic or psychopathic bully working within a group of brothel owners.

I still think Mrs. P. worked awful hard to say, here's the story, report this and then look away. Which brings up the possibility that brothel owners, including John McCarthy of Dorset Street, had some level of police protection which would imply something bigger than renting rooms to single women who happen to be unfortunates.

One more thing, one Welsh article I posted was about Catherine Poole returning from London to Newport to witness for Mary Ann Williams who was accused of running a brothel. That's all there is on that name in the papers. I still feel fairly certain I have seen the name Catherine Poole in other history and think it is Ripper history. I can't find it in any of our basic data bases though what I have written will surely show up now. If we knew Poole's destination in London it might be very interesting.

[Gary Barnett]

Of course, in 1888, the entire west side of Breezer’s Hill was occupied by Gooch and Cousen’s newly-built wool warehouse, and over the next couple of decades, the eastern side would be demolished to make way for more of the same.

Did they store skins there as well as wool?

I’ve just checked: they certainly dealt in them.

[Gary Barnett]

Of course, in 1888, the entire west side of Breezer’s Hill was occupied by Gooch and Cousen’s newly-built wool warehouse, and over the next couple of decades, the eastern side would be demolished to make way for more of the same.

Did they store skins there as well as wool?

[Gary Barnett]

Hi Gary. That is really interesting about the skin dresser making sausage casings also commonly called skins. I had not thought about that and somewhere saw Johannes M.'s trade stated as "skin dresser in the fur trade."

That did not make a lot of sense to me because I never figured much of the raw "fur trade" was carried out in London though there were certainly slaughter houses for meat production. However, astrakhan for instance comes from meat animals and that shaggy stuff called astrakhan could come from sheep as well as goats. Hides, pelts, skins, have to be rapidly processed by scraping and a number of other activities to create leather or fur. At minimum, bits of flesh, fat and blood must be removed rapidly. But at the time, fine furs were coming from Russia, North America, etc.

If the name Felix was connected to the skin dressing trade, WHAT exactly did that mean? If the origin was German, well, we think of all kinds of tasty sausages made in Germany.

I think we have a new angle here. How many skin dressers might Mary have known? Were any of them insane? I bet this kind of skin dresser could find a kidney. I see quite a list of parts in one of those ads. I wonder what was done with uteri from meat animals?

That ad addresses pork butchers and confectioners. I assume "skins" would have been used by confectioners to make various puddings?

The 1891 census gives JM's occupation as 'skin dresser' and the word 'fur' is pencilled in above it. So perhaps he was a furrier. But The Rich Street address for Hawkridge caught my eye.

[Anna Morris]

On the second topic, I can see a "brothel" being a residence with a room to rent that happens to get rented by unfortunates and business commences.

I don't have access to English papers but there is a lot about brothels in the Welsh papers. I am sure some of it was rather casual but a lot of it seemed to be premeditated business. It seems like we can trace the Morgenstern clan from one street of brothels to another. And what of Mrs. B. and Mrs. P.?

Adrianus lived in or closer to the West End while his wife was alive. I can understand him moving closer to his work as a gas stoker after she died. I could understand him slipping into renting a room or two, etc. But I wonder if he had similar activities in the West End and if so, who did he know or deal with? Plus, names seem to be rather fluid in this clan. Why do names keep varying?

It seems a number of people that can be linked to prostitution, including John McCarthy of Dorset Street, were Catholics. I could make a religious point or two but what I am pondering at the moment is, if Catholics in 1880s London were somewhat on the edge of society? I have read much history on the Reformation and subsequent issues, especially in England and France. Some French citizens fled to nineteenth century London due to religious persecution but in general what was the religious feeling of the day? And would any of that matter in the poorer areas where life was a struggle, the London Docks drew in men of many nationalities and faiths and immigrant Jews were coming steadily?

Considering brothels and prostitution in Cardiff and thereabouts I don't see much indication that brothel owners would have been one religion or another.

Organised religion serves to congregate people who share beliefs so I could also imagine people of one faith justifying questionable activities among themselves, perhaps encouraging, aiding and excusing each other in whatever activity. (For instance, it could be argued it is better for an unfortunate to have a warm room in which to do business and if there is sin attached, a perfect act of contrition could erase the stain.)

Even if people are not active in their faiths, they feel a sense of belonging with others who claim the same belief systems so association could be more important than whatever faith system might be in place.