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  • R. J. Palmer
    replied
    In his article on the Butcher's Row suspect, Scott Nelson mentions Solomon Zimmerman, a rag merchant who was among the residents of High Street in 1888-89, but afterwards left the area. I thought it surprising that a rag merchant would be ensconced in such a commercially viable district, but it seems that even the rag merchants of Butcher's Row were well-off...or at least would be in time. I'm assuming this is the same gent.
    Attached Files

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  • Karsten Giese
    replied
    Thanks, RJ!

    Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post
    So, in other words, some of the more oblique references we see to a "crazy foreign butcher" or "Jewish butcher" may not be referencing Sagar's suspect, per se, but a sailor/butcher on a traveling cattle/slaughter boat.
    You could be right! And the butcher who became a medical student after his fatherīs death? What do you think?

    Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post
    At least that's how I interpret it. That said, we are still stuck with Bachert harassing a local butcher. There is, incidentally, a Thomas Davis, butcher, living in Devas Street, Poplar, in 1881, but he looks like he may be in Kingston in 1891, so perhaps not 'Bachert's' butcher.

    There is also a Henry Norman, 19, butcher, living at No. 101 Ferry Road, Poplar, but he doesn't look to be the right age for Bachart's friend from the pewter pot/bad coin incident.
    At that time there was a Thomas Alexander Davies/ Aldgate High Street/ Butchers Row (not a Butcher)! See Butchers' Row and its Residents - Addresses & Butchers' Row and its Residents -People.

    Karsten.

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  • R. J. Palmer
    replied
    Originally posted by Karsten Giese View Post
    The special patrol on this beat did not see anything to cause suspicion, and only 40 minutes previously an officer left the Castle-alley at the Aldgate High Street end, where he had been on special duty. It is stated that some 50 extra Constables from other districts were withdrawn from this neighbourhood within the past few weeks. While there is a general belief among the police that the murderer has been secreted in the district, there is another equally strong opinion that the author of these horrible crimes is a foreign butcher.
    Hi Karsten - interesting quote, but isn't the point of the last line that the murderer may be someone from outside the area, as opposed to a local man living near Aldgate High Street?

    The theory making the rounds in the summer of 1889 of a 'foreign butcher' seems to have been centered around idea of butcher coming into London on a cattle boat, as opposed to a retail butcher with actual premises in the East End.

    For instance, the well-known report published in many newspapers in July 1889 that tried to link Bachert to the cattle boat theory, on the supposed strength of the letter he had received from the Eastern Hotel in Poplar (which was known to be frequented by sailors).

    "A POLICE THEORY.

    The police believe that the perpetrator of the murders is a foreign Jew butcher employed on a cattle boat plying to the Continent. It was on Wednesday ascertained that some cattle boats arrived on Tuesday at the docks and sailed again next morning, and this has led the authorities to issue orders to the East-end Thames Police to watch all vessels about to leave the Thames, especially cattle boats which trade between London, Oporto, and other Spanish ports, and also America ports, and request the cattle men to give an account of themselves on the night of the 16th or the morning of the 17th inst. Detective-inspector Regan, Thames Division, and a large staff of detective officers under him, are, in consequence, engaged in carrying into effect the order, and all passenger vessels are boarded by the officers, and the passengers carefully scrutinised.

    LETTER FROM "THE RIPPER."

    As a corroboration of the above theory, and justifying the action of the Thames police, a letter was received a few days ago by Mr. Albert Backert [Bachert], Whitechapel, as chairman of the vigilance committee, commencing: "Eastern Hotel, Pop-." And then thickly penning the words out. Mr. Backert states that he was urged to treat the matter as a practical joke; but in view of the writer "Jack the Ripper," threatening to re-commence operations about the middle of July, and Wednesday morning's murder, inquiries have been made, with the result that it has been discovered that there is an Eastern Hotel in the East India Dock-road, Poplar, which is within a stone's throw of the docks, and where a number of sailors put up. It is thought probable that the murderer may have been on a voyage during the interval between the Miller's-court murder and the one which on Wednesday renewed the horrors which have shocked the world. "


    This is the same Bachert letter that led a reporter for The New York Herald to investigate a sailor named Cornwall.

    https://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?p=336877

    So, in other words, some of the more oblique references we see to a "crazy foreign butcher" or "Jewish butcher" may not be referencing Sagar's suspect, per se, but a sailor/butcher on a traveling cattle/slaughter boat.

    At least that's how I interpret it. That said, we are still stuck with Bachert harassing a local butcher. There is, incidentally, a Thomas Davis, butcher, living in Devas Street, Poplar, in 1881, but he looks like he may be in Kingston in 1891, so perhaps not 'Bachert's' butcher.

    There is also a Henry Norman, 19, butcher, living at No. 101 Ferry Road, Poplar, but he doesn't look to be the right age for Bachart's friend from the pewter pot/bad coin incident.

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  • Chris Phillips
    replied
    Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post
    True enough; I've seen American newspapers use the terms 'London Police' and "Scotland Yard [police]" interchangeably, but I doubt a UK paper would. I'm assuming the 'Sunday Chronicle' that the New Zealand article alludes to is the one out of Manchester (?)
    Certainly it was a UK paper - a bit further on in that thread I did post the original article from the Sunday Chronicle:
    https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...310#post161310

    And also in that thread we discussed whether the source might be Anderson, and also that the article is peculiar in referring to the Ripper murders as "during the last decade." Although it wouldn't entirely explain the peculiarity, I did wonder whether this might be an adaptation of an article previously published when Mary Annie Austin was murdered in 1901 (just after Anderson's retirement). But unfortunately the British Library's copy of the Chronicle for that year wasn't fit for production when I last checked.

    I think the suspect described in that article sounds very much like the one mentioned in the article you found from September 1889 (and the other reports from the same month posted by Karsten above).

    On the insane medical student, here's a Casebook thread from ten years ago with a collection of press reports mentioning such suspects. Actually the Walthamstow and Leyton Guardian report is among the ones we discussed then, which I had forgotten:
    https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...eory-from-1894

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  • R. J. Palmer
    replied
    Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post
    Thanks. I think the snag with the idea that it's Sagar is the description of the detective as "Scotland Yard" rather than "Old Jewry."
    True enough; I've seen American newspapers use the terms 'London Police' and "Scotland Yard [police]" interchangeably, but I doubt a UK paper would. I'm assuming the 'Sunday Chronicle' that the New Zealand article alludes to is the one out of Manchester (?)

    Leave a comment:


  • Karsten Giese
    replied
    Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post
    That's odd - it displays correctly, but links back to the newspaper report. I'll try again:
    http://sharemap.org/public/Trams_in_London#!webgl

    Now it works... thanks...

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  • Chris Phillips
    replied
    Originally posted by Karsten Giese View Post
    Thanks Chris! Unfortunately, the Tram link does not work...

    That's odd - it displays correctly, but links back to the newspaper report. I'll try again:
    http://sharemap.org/public/Trams_in_London#!webgl

    Leave a comment:


  • Karsten Giese
    replied
    Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
    Thanks for this reminder, Karsten.

    The newspaper story implies that the man was confined between the murders of Mary Kelly and Alice McKenzie.

    For some reason I still opt for David Cohen, whose European name could have been Kosminski.
    Hi Scott!

    South Wales Echo, July 17, 1889

    A Daring Fiend!

    An ex-member of the Metropolitan Police, who was standing talking with a friend at the corner of Castle Alley, not more than forty yards distant, about the time of the occurrence, saw and heard nothing of the affair. The special patrol on this beat did not see anything to cause suspicion, and only 40 minutes previously an officer left the Castle-alley at the Aldgate High Street end, where he had been on special duty. It is stated that some 50 extra Constables from other districts were withdrawn from this neighbourhood within the past few weeks. While there is a general belief among the police that the murderer has been secreted in the district, there is another equaily strong opinion that the author of these horrible crimes is a foreign butcher.

    Years ago a member of the German forum posted this (I think Howard had found it):

    Rochester Democrat And Chronicle, 16. September 1889

    "The London Police has a theory that Jack the Ripper is a crazy jewish butcher."

    This headline itīs all I know about it.

    At the same time:

    (Maybe these reports had something to do with the 1905 Sunday Chronicle report Chris posted. You all know these articles and I feel sure they were compared and discussed on forums years ago)

    London Evening News And Post, 13. September 1889:

    "The second man is now being watched. He is a resident of the East End, and has been for years. For a long time he has been acting in the most suspicious fashion. He has a business, to which he scarcely ever personally attends. He goes about drinking, and is to be met at all hours of the night in the streets all over the neighborhood. He enters his house at hours when his wife and family have long been at rest. No member of his family dare question him as to his ramblings. He knocks about among the lowest class of women at unearthly hours, although, according to general report, their very appearance is hateful in his sight. His hatred has been produced by physical suffering, for which, like most men of his class, he holds himself perfectly irresponsible. His habits are such as to give one the notion that he is not altogether in a fit position to be allowed to roam at will. Whether he has anything to do with any crime, it is, of course, impossible to say, but he is kept in view."

    North Eastern Daily Gazette, 18. September 1889:

    "A Detective's Views: We are watching now three men (John Cleary, Guzzling Jim and?), besides the usual night-birds of Whitechapel. One man created some stir during the last murders under circumstances which I need not say anything about. He is a curious sort of fellow; in business, but not doing much to keep it going. His wife and daughter see to it, and he is out at all hours of the night. He says he is a member of the vigilance committee, but I can't answer as to that. No, I won't tell you his name, even if you do want to find out if he is a member or not. This man is out at all hours of the night, and he lets himself in some quietly that his wife does not know what time he really arrives home. She generally finds him in the shop when she comes down the morning. He is being watched, but we can't arrest him only on the suspicious we have. We must wait further developments."

    All these and the "Butcher/ Medical Student article"- Walthamstow and Leyton Guardian, Saturday, 10 August 1889- (see also Sergeant Whiteīs "Jewish medical student" & The Halifax letter "He is a medical student") + Simīs “He had at one time been employed in a hospital in Poland.” make me think that it is possible that "Kosminski" was someone else than Aaron Kozminski.

    And if the "ebay Kosminski letter" is genuine, Scott, "The Jew Kozminski" was not David Cohen.

    But I always had the impression that Swanson knew: Kosminski was "marked for death", and that the suspect would die "shortly afterwards".

    Ex-Det. Sergeant B. Leeson 1934:

    After this (Coles) a story circulated that the " Ripper " was a butcher, who wore blue overalls and a leather apron, and an English Jew named Jacobs, a perfectly harmless man, somehow attracted suspicion to himself. Possibly because, working in a slaughter-house, he always wore a leather apron.

    People would point Jacobs out in the street as the suspected man, and more than once he had to run for it. I myself was often obliged to take him into the police station for protection. The thing so preyed on the poor fellow's mind that it finally caused him to lose his reason.

    Sagar:

    We had good reason to suspect a certain man who worked in 'Butcher's-row,' Aldgate.

    The police realised, as also did the public, that the crimes were those of a madman, and suspicion fell upon a man, who, without doubt, was the murderer. Identification being impossible, he could not be charged. He was, however, placed in a lunatic asylum, and the series of atrocities came to an end.

    Certainly, there was at least one Butcher (Sagarīs suspect) who could have been "Kosminski". Aaron Kozminski? Sometimes I have my doubts.

    Karsten.

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  • Karsten Giese
    replied
    Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post
    I don't remember having seen that before, though an insane medical student was certainly mentioned from time to time press reports.

    I wonder how hard it would be to identify this suspect (assuming he really existed). On the face of it, the tramlines narrow things down quite a lot:
    http://sharemap.org/public/Trams_in_London#!webgl


    And it seems the parish was one with a rector rather than a vicar.

    I suppose it would be possible to cross-check lists of butchers in the appropriate parishes, death registrations and the central registers of admissions to private asylums. Not that I'm volunteering ...

    Thanks Chris! Unfortunately, the Tram link does not work...

    There was a press report after Anderson's death:

    He did not say, as he might, that the police themselves destroyed the only tangible piece of evidence ever obtained. The murderer on one occasion left some writing in chalk on a wall... The police actually erased the words without photographing them...

    When I read "had written an extraordinary series of letters" (Walthamstow and Leyton Guardian) I immediately thought of "The Most Important Clue Yet...":

    http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=31924

    Cox, City Police:

    We had many people under observation while the murders were being perpetrated, but it was not until the discovery of the body of Mary Kelly had been made that we seemed to get upon the trail. Certain investigations made by several of our cleverest detectives made it apparent to us that a man living in the East End of London was not unlikely to have been connected with the crimes.

    One might think the police had found letters, written by a certain individual (Certain investigations made by several of our cleverest detectives...).

    If the ebay Kosminski letter is genuine, it would be possible that the people, mentioned in the letter, had knowledge of letters written by the Jew Kozminski.

    A Jack the Ripper who was married, who had a daughter and who was a business man and who had written letters seems rather unlikely to me. But who knows...

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  • Roy Corduroy
    replied
    Good morning Chris,

    Originally posted by Chris Phillips View Post
    I only wish that someone with greater skills than mine could ferret out the truth behind this report:
    https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...ronicle-report
    Jacob Levy comes to mind.

    Welcome back,

    Roy

    Leave a comment:


  • Chris Phillips
    replied
    Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
    Thanks for this reminder, Karsten.

    The newspaper story implies that the man was confined between the murders of Mary Kelly and Alice McKenzie.

    For some reason I still opt for David Cohen, whose European name could have been Kosminski.

    I'm curious about one aspect of that report - "... there yet remains the contingency that this latest murder was the work of a fresh assassin, and Dr. Phillips inclines to that opinion from the nature of the mutilations."


    The Times report of the Mackenzie inquest at Casebook has Phillips saying "I may volunteer the statement that the injuries to the throat are not similar to those in the other cases." In his MEPO report he says he cannot satisfy himself that the perpetrator is the same, but this press report goes a bit further even than that. Had Phillips's opinions been made public elsewhere?

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  • Chris Phillips
    replied
    Originally posted by Karsten Giese View Post
    It's puzzling me for years, Chris... If the "well-known Scotland Yard detective" spoke about "Kosminski" and about the Butcher business it is hard to believe that he did mean Aaron Kozminski.

    Do you know this press report:

    https://www.casebook.org/press_repor...n/w890810.html
    I don't remember having seen that before, though an insane medical student was certainly mentioned from time to time press reports.

    I wonder how hard it would be to identify this suspect (assuming he really existed). On the face of it, the tramlines narrow things down quite a lot:
    http://sharemap.org/public/Trams_in_London#!webgl


    And it seems the parish was one with a rector rather than a vicar.

    I suppose it would be possible to cross-check lists of butchers in the appropriate parishes, death registrations and the central registers of admissions to private asylums. Not that I'm volunteering ...

    Leave a comment:


  • Anna Morris
    replied
    Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
    Thanks for this reminder, Karsten.

    The newspaper story implies that the man was confined between the murders of Mary Kelly and Alice McKenzie.

    For some reason I still opt for David Cohen, whose European name could have been Kosminski.
    I agree and I still reject Aaron K. as the suspect. I don't know to what extent a name based on place could have been loosely applied or used to obscure an actual name. Where I am from, we used to refer to a certain class of people as _____-ites, meaning from a little town that had lots of criminals. What if someone referred to a suspect on his way to an asylum as 'a Kosminski', meaning 'from Cosmin'?

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  • Chris Phillips
    replied
    Originally posted by R. J. Palmer View Post
    Thanks, Chris. The article from New Zealand sounds a lot like Sagar and his suspect; Sagar retired in 1905 and began 'making the rounds,' so the publishing date generally fits with other statements he made in the press earlier that year.

    For instance, here is an interview with Sagar from January 1905 (published in the London Daily News) that alludes to a suspect seen shortly after the Mitre Square murder. You've probably seen it. Once again, the suspect is later sent off to an asylum--so presumably it is the same man. Sagar has a few of the elements garbled, of course. Kelly = Eddowes.

    Thanks. I think the snag with the idea that it's Sagar is the description of the detective as "Scotland Yard" rather than "Old Jewry." I've always thought it sounded very like Anderson himself, even though the details are hard to reconcile with Anderson's later pronouncements, or with Aaron Kozminski's circumstances, as Karsten says.

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  • Scott Nelson
    replied
    Originally posted by Karsten Giese View Post
    It's puzzling me for years, Chris... If the "well-known Scotland Yard detective" spoke about "Kosminski" and about the Butcher business it is hard to believe that he did mean Aaron Kozminski.

    Do you know this press report:

    https://www.casebook.org/press_repor...n/w890810.html
    Thanks for this reminder, Karsten.

    The newspaper story implies that the man was confined between the murders of Mary Kelly and Alice McKenzie.

    For some reason I still opt for David Cohen, whose European name could have been Kosminski.

    Leave a comment:

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