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'Crank' Compares Likeness Of Dagonet To Ripper

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  • 'Crank' Compares Likeness Of Dagonet To Ripper

    North Eastern Daily Gazette
    September 21, 1889
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  • #2
    In later years, Sims states that he was informed that he resembled the Ripper ( I'll post the link to the thread in a moment).....

    Is this the source which was the basis of that comment ?

    From the 'crank' ?

    This link takes you to a thread which discusses the similarity of Sims to the Ripper, as so alleged.

    http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=18179
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    • #3
      Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
      In later years, Sims states that he was informed that he resembled the Ripper ( I'll post the link to the thread in a moment).....

      Is this the source which was the basis of that comment ?

      From the 'crank' ?

      This link takes you to a thread which discusses the similarity of Sims to the Ripper, as so alleged.

      http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=18179
      Hi Howard

      What went around always comes around again! The supposed likeness of George R. Sims to the Ripper was also discussed here in an even earlier thread here, in 2009, with contributions by SPE, Simon Wood, Robert Linford, Gareth Williams (Sam Flynn) as well as you and myself.

      See http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=7617

      Best regards

      Chris
      Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
      https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

      Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
      Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks Chris.
        There seems to be two ways to go here at this point in time....one, that the 'crank' is L. Forbes Winslow...or two, that the crank is obviously someone else.

        Any ideas ?
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        • #5
          Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
          Thanks Chris.
          There seems to be two ways to go here at this point in time....one, that the 'crank' is L. Forbes Winslow...or two, that the crank is obviously someone else.

          Any ideas ?
          Hi Howard

          I am not sure that "crank" has to be Forbes Winslow. Didn't Sims himself write that it was a coffee stall owner who said he looked like the Ripper? That being so, perhaps crank could be the coffee-stall keeper himself or someone other than Forbes Winslow who had heard the man say that the Ripper resembled Sims.

          Oct. 6, 1889.

          I sent Albert Edward over the other day to interview the gentleman who has been taking my portrait to newspaper editors and to Dr. Forbes Winslow, and assuring them that it is like Jack the Ripper, and that is the sort of man the police have to look for. I am pleased to learn that the gentleman does not say that I am Jack - but only that he is very like me. The gentleman in question keeps a coffee-stall, and is certain that one night after committing a murder Jack came and refreshed himself at his establishment. His story is very plausible, and there may be something in it, but I can't say that I feel flattered to learn that the notorious lady-killer is as like me as one Dromio was to the other.

          "Me think it was Dagonet!" exclaimed the coffee-stall keeper to Albert Edward; "not likely. Why, Jack the Ripper had three hot pork sausages at my stall, and a cold meat pie. If I'd thought it was DAGONET by the likeness, I should have known it wasn't by the sausages." Certainly the sausages are strong circumstantial evidence in my favour. My digestion has saved my reputation.

          1917.

          As a journalist I followed the Jack the Ripper crimes at close quarters. I had a personal interest in the matter, for my portrait, which appeared outside the cover of a sixpenny edition of my "Social Kaleidoscope," was taken to Scotland Yard by a coffee-stall keeper as the likeness of the assassin.

          On the night of the double murder, or rather in the small hours of the morning, a man had drunk a cup of coffee at the stall. The stall-keeper noticed that he had blood on his shirt-cuffs. The coffee merchant said, looking at him keenly, "Jack the Ripper's about perhaps tonight."

          "Yes," replied the man, "he is pretty lively just now, isn't he? You may hear of two murders in the morning." Then he walked away.

          At dawn the bodies of two women murdered by the Ripper were found.

          Passing a newsvendor's shop that afternoon the coffee-stall keeper saw my likeness outside the book.

          "That's the man!" he said, and bought the book. He took it first to Dr. Forbes Winslow, who was writing letters to the papers on the Ripper crimes at the time.

          Forbes Winslow, who knew me, told him it was absurd, but the man went off with the book to the Yard, and Forbes Winslow wrote to me and told me of the interview and the coffee-stall keeper's "mistake."

          But it was a pardonable mistake. The redoubtable Ripper was not unlike me as I was at that time.

          He was undoubtedly a doctor who had been in a lunatic asylum and had developed homicidal mania of a special kind.

          Each of his murders was more maniacal than its predecessors, and the last was worst of all.

          After committing that he drowned himself. His body was found in the Thames after it had been in the river for nearly a month.

          Had he been found alive there would have been no mystery about Jack the Ripper. The man would have been arrested and tried. But you can't try a corpse for a crime, however strong the suspicion may be.

          And the authorities could not say, "This dead man was Jack the Ripper." The dead cannot defend themselves.

          But there were circumstances which left very little doubt in the official mind as to the Ripper's identity.

          From the writings of "Dagonet" on Casebook at http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/dagonet.html
          Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
          https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

          Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
          Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

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          • #6
            C.G.

            Agreed, it doesn't have to be Winslow...I think it was the coffee stall owner after all.

            The reason I phrased my question in the fashion I did was, as you look at the original post on this thread, you'll see it mentions :

            "He has written a complete history of the case..."

            I don't know about you, but that doesn't seem to suggest a coffee stall owner.

            So...in my view, if it was the coffee stall owner ( which Sims states and I don't have any reason to dispute what he says ), then something doesn't set right about a coffee stall owner writing a complete history of the case.

            What do you make of it ?
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            • #7
              Hi Howard

              If anyone were to write a "complete history of the case" it would be Forbes Winslow who has always struck me as a kind of peripheral character who wanted to be a big part of the investigation but didn't quite make it.

              On the other hand, there are plenty of other people who had an "interest" in the case and who stuck their oars in at various points and sometimes time and again, like Forbes Winslow, such as Albert Backert, Roslyn D'Onston, and Edward Larkins.

              Think of it this way: The Ripper case was bigger than anyone and everyone wanted a piece of it.

              Best regards

              Chris
              Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
              https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

              Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
              Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

              Comment


              • #8
                Speaking of Bachert, look at the second part of this Mustard & Cress article.

                North Eastern Dail Gazette
                October 15, 1889
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                • #9
                  I think if Bachert was involved, Bachert himself would have told us. He wasn't exactly a reticent fellow.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Robert Linford View Post
                    I think if Bachert was involved, Bachert himself would have told us. He wasn't exactly a reticent fellow.
                    Excellent point, Robert. Any time Bachert is involved in the case it seems to be all about Bachert.
                    Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
                    https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

                    Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
                    Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      If anyone were to write a "complete history of the case" it would be Forbes Winslow who has always struck me as a kind of peripheral character who wanted to be a big part of the investigation but didn't quite make it.
                      -Chris George-

                      No argument there, CG...but the threadstarter leaves the impression that the person who wrote this 'complete history of the case' and also made the comparison to Sims was this coffee stall operator, which doesn't seem to fit.

                      It may well be, after the dust settles, that the coffee stall operator brought Sims' Social Kaleidoscope and that was this book that was being referred to as the 'complete history of the case'
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