Pearly Poll in 1882

[Tom_Wescott]

Mr. Lucky sure is eagle-eyed. Good work on him. However, how do we justify this with Emily Holland? Presumably, German Moggy/Margaret German, if they're one and the same, would also be Emily Holland? Could Margaret German be in fact her real name and 'Emily Holland' an alias? If so, Charles Lechmere just gained an accomplice!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Debra Arif]

Could Margaret German be in fact her real name and 'Emily Holland' an alias? If so, Charles Lechmere just gained an accomplice!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Could be and she just picked another Eurpoean country to switch to!

LOL on the accomplice.

[Paul]

Could be and she just picked another Eurpoean country to switch to!

LOL on the accomplice.

Wasn't Emily Holland was described as elderly? Margaret German was 38 in 1888.

[Debra Arif]

Wasn't Emily Holland was described as elderly? Margaret German was 38 in 1888.

Yes, maybe. I haven't really looked that deeply into it to be honest, Paul.
I just thought Mr Lucky's observation what brilliant.

[Paul]

Yes, maybe. I haven't really looked that deeply into it to be honest, Paul.
I just thought Mr Lucky's observation what brilliant.

Yes, absolutely.

[Debra Arif]

Some further information courtesy of Mr Lucky. He also mentions the age difference, Paul:

There appears to be two sightings of Nichols, one on the corner and one opposite
the church. So i think Holland and German are different people. Holland is
possibly older as well.

This may be of interest-
'All afternoon there was a constant succession of visitors to the Whitechapel
mortuary with a view to the identification of the murdered woman. In a large
number of instances the preliminary questioning by the inspector of police
enabled him to say their errand was in vain. The clothes remained in the yard,
and a glance at these convinced others that they need not pursue the matter
further. About three o'clock in the afternoon, however, a middle-aged woman
attended, who at once identified the clothing in a positive manner. On seeing
the body of the victim she said at once she knew her. The deceased had lived for
a period of about six weeks at a lodging-house in Charles-street, but was very
reticent as to her position. No one even knew her name, except that she had said
it was "Polly." She had also said that she was married, and that her husband was
alive, as well as a son of 18. But as she was evidently living apart from her
husband, and did not like to questioned on the subject, the others in the house
forebore to ask her further questions. With this to guide them, together with
the fact that the woman was wearing workhouse clothing - though the exact name
of the workhouse was torn off - the police are confident of being able to trace
her. The deceased had not been seen at the lodging-house for the last seven or
eight days. *Other women from the same house were sent for by the police, and
they also identified the body*, but knew no additional particulars concerning
her. At intervals also the policemen of the district likely to have met the
deceased viewed the corpse. One of them recognised her as a woman he had seen
about; and he made a confidential communication to the inspector. The purport of
it did not transpire, but the inspector appeared to attach great importance to
it, and shortly afterwards left the mortuary.' - The People 2nd Sept

[Debra Arif]

In common with Emily Holland, Moggy was reported to have spoken to Polly at 2.30 too, not just seen her. I wonder why there are no other mentions of Moggy anywhere else?
I also wonder how a Sheffield newspaper was able to report on the women mentioning Leather Apron on Sept 1st and yet none of the London papers seem to have done until 4th Sept., is it?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Debs. Great follow-up from Mr. Lucky and yourself. So, Emily Holland and Margaret German are likely NOT the same person then? And why doesn't Mr. Lucky post here?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Debra Arif]

To be honest...who really cares?

[Howard Brown]

Tom:
Mr. Lucky signed up today, if that helps.

[Tom_Wescott]

To be honest...who really cares?

About whether German and Holland were one and the same? I was under the distinct impression you did. Or why Lucky doesn't post? I just thought it curious he would PM you instead of posting. But people do strange things. I seem to recall he's the third Lechmere devotee, but with a theory different from that of Ed and Christer.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Paul]

In common with Emily Holland, Moggy was reported to have spoken to Polly at 2.30 too, not just seen her. I wonder why there are no other mentions of Moggy anywhere else?
I also wonder how a Sheffield newspaper was able to report on the women mentioning Leather Apron on Sept 1st and yet none of the London papers seem to have done until 4th Sept., is it?

I would still suggest that Holland and German are the same person (or that the latter's name was attached to the former) as the latter would be the last person to have seen Nichols alive and therefore almost certainly brought to the inquest. Several northern newspapers reported "German Moggy" and I guess they subscribed to a news agency or to a journalist of their own. Moggy doesn't appear after 1 September as far as I can tell.

[Debra Arif]

I would still suggest that Holland and German are the same person (or that the latter's name was attached to the former) as the latter would be the last person to have seen Nichols alive and therefore almost certainly brought to the inquest. Several northern newspapers reported "German Moggy" and I guess they subscribed to a news agency or to a journalist of their own. Moggy doesn't appear after 1 September as far as I can tell.

I was only able to find the name "German Moggy" in the Sheffield paper of Sept. 1st. but I don't have access to the bigger subscription British Library newspaper site anymore so that may be why-which other papers reported it? Thanks.

It reminds me of the Mary Jane Kelly witnesses where we have-(is it?)- Sarah Lewis and Mrs Kennedy? giving a similar story but only one appearing at the inquest.

[Debra Arif]

I seem to recall he's the third Lechmere devotee, but with a theory different from that of Ed and Christer.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I've no idea about that, Tom. He's joined now so he tell you himself.

He just had some good info., relevant to what we were talking about that he was willing to share as far as I am concerned.
Mr Lucky apparently discovered this Sheffield article in July?, so he may have researched German Moggy in more detail and be able to shed some light.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Debs and Paul, I took a quick look yesterday at Rip 109 which has Paul's excellent Leather Apron piece (I need to re-read it more fully as it's been a few years) but I didn't see any mention of the 'German Moggy' reports that constitutes the first press mention of Leather Apron, so as far as I can tell it was first introduced to the world {sans the 'German Moggy' part) by our good friend, Mr. Lucky, at the Casebook on June 11th, 2012. It was tucked in the middle of thread and received no replies, so it's a great thing that Debs discovered it and posted the entire article here where attention was drawn to it.

If there are 'many other' German Moggy reports it would be good to see some, as they might include additional details than what's in the Sheffield & Rotherham article.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott