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HH Holmes a Ripper suspect?

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  • #46
    Did you establish that Jeff was indeed related to HH Holmes?

    Nina looked into the matter and he is.


    • #47
      Thanks Howard

      In the above podcast, I found most of the suggestions as to why Holmes might be JtR to be at best misguided and even I wouldn't put forward some of the extremely speculative stuff that surrounds his candidacy

      I will probably be buying all the HH Holmes books due out as I'm very interested in his case anyway and I would like to see a factual work that puts forward Holmes as JtR to see what all the fuss is about

      Bloodstains doesn't cut it for me


      • #48
        Well, it seems like fictionalized history masquerading as non-fiction and seriosu research has it's own genre now.


        • #50
          I had an interesting discussion this evening on a true crime fb page with author Dane Ladwig, who has a book coming out at the end of this month that names H. H. Holmes as the Ripper. He told me that he has documentary evidence showing that Holmes had two flats in London in 1888, one of which was in Whitechapel. I must admit it made my ears perk up. More on this as I learn about it.

          Yours truly,

          Tom Wescott


          • #51
            I'd imagine that one of those flats was at 221b Baker Street, London, eh?


            • #52
              I nicked this on the net, my thanks to those concerned.

              'RMS Cunard Etruria Steamship

              RMS Etruria was built by John Elder & Co of Glasgow, Scotland in 1884. The Etruria and her sister Umbria, by the standards of the time, were record breakers. They were the largest liners then in service, and they plied the Liverpool to New York Service. RMS Etruria was completed and launched in March 1885, twelve weeks later than her sister Umbria.

              The Etruria had many distinguishing features that included two enormous funnels which gave the outward impression of huge power. She also had three large steel masts which when fully rigged had an extensive spread of canvas. Another innovation on Etruria was that she was equipped with refrigeration machinery, but it was the single screw propulsion that would bring the most publicity later in her career.

              The ship epitomized the luxuries of Victorian style. The public rooms in First Class were full of ornately carved furniture and heavy velvet curtains hung in all the rooms, and they were cluttered with bric-a-brac that period fashion dictated. These rooms, and the First Class cabins, were situated on the Promenade, Upper, Saloon and Main Decks. There was also a Music Room, Smoke Room for gentlemen, and separate dining rooms for First and Second Class passengers. By the standard of the day, Second Class accommodation was moderate, but spacious and comfortable. RMS Etruria’s accommodation consisted of 550 First Class, and 800 Second Class passengers. However late in 1892 this changed to 500 First Class, 160 Second Class, and 800 Third Class (Steerage) passengers.

              Here is a closer list from the years 1888-1889. These are the specific dates that the Cunard Etruria Steamship line had set sail each time.

              As you can see there is NO Westbound steamship in the year 1889, nor after the ship that returned on August 30, 1888, which was BEFORE the “Jack the Ripper” Murders.

              Here is the Westbound Passenger list, but it was not from the Eutruria line and in fact that ship was sent Westbound on October 23, 1886 and not again until April 30, 1898, which was long after the “Jack the Ripper” murders had occurred. This was the closest dated ship that sailed and Mr. Jeff Mudgett had stated years ago that his Great Great Grandfather was on the RMS Cunard Etruria Steam ship line on August 30, 1888.

              Passenger List R.M.S. Scythia, Cunard Line, August 1888

              Saloon Passenger List for the 30 August 1888 Westbound Voyage of the Scythia of the Cunard Line from Liverpool, England to New York, Commanded by Captain ROBERTS.

              Notable Passengers Included: James Allen, Judge Walbridge A. Field, James Barney Marsh, Alexander McMillan, John C. Porter, John Codman Ropes.

              ESTABLISHED 1840.

              Cunard Line


              R.M.S. “SCYTHIA,”

              CAPTAIN ROBERTS,


              August 30, 1888.

              Saloon Passengers

              Mr. F. P. Adams.
              Mrs.: Adams.
              Mr. E. E. Allen.
              Mr. James Allen.
              Mr. W. S. Appleton.
              Mr. O. H. Atochin.
              Mrs. Atochin.
              Mr. A. Beal.
              Mr. Bliss.
              Miss M. Brady.
              Mr. W. J. Bridgman.
              Mr. John Brown.
              Mrs. James B. Brown.
              Miss Alice F. Brown.
              Miss Edith B. Brown.
              Mr. F. S. Bryant.
              Mrs. Bryant.
              Mr. Burke.
              Mr. H. Burton.
              The Rev. Father Caddihy.
              Mr. J. F. Callahan.
              Mrs. Callahan.
              Rev. Cleary.
              Mr. L. W. Cook.
              Dr. Davies.
              Mrs. Dewey,
              Capt. G. W. Donald.
              Mrs. Dorr.
              Mr. Ellerton Dorr.
              Mr. Tileston Dorr.
              Mr. G. L. Draper.
              Mr. W. S. Edwards.
              Mr. G. W. Egerton.
              Judge Walbridge A. Field.
              Rev. Fogarty.
              Mr. B. B. Ford.
              Miss Annie J. Gill.
              Mrs. F. R. Going.
              Miss D. G. Going.
              Mr. James M. Gordon.
              Mrs. Gordon.
              Rev. J. T. Gulick.
              Master W. Gulick.
              Mr. H. C. Hayward.
              Mr. R. Hodson, Jun.
              Mrs. Hodson.
              Rev. Hughes.
              Mrs. C. E. Humphrey.
              Mr. Ernest Jacoby.
              Miss Jones.
              Mr. Donald Kennedy.
              Miss Lamb.
              Miss Leonard.
              Mr. G. T. Mahoney.
              Miss Ada Martin.
              Mr. W. T. Martin.
              Mr. J. B. Marsh.
              Mrs. Marsh.
              Mr. P. D. Mason.
              Mrs. M. G. Mason.
              Miss M. G. Mason.
              Miss J. A. Mason.
              Mr. Daniel F. McAuliffe.
              Mr. Norman McLeod.
              Mr. Alexander McMillan.
              Miss Morgan.
              Mr. J. N. Morse.
              Miss Carrie E. Morse.
              Miss E. F. Munroe.
              Miss J. Murphy.
              Mr. W. J. Niles.
              Mr. A. S. Osborne.
              Mr. James Pinder.
              Mr. Francis Piper.
              Mr. John C. Porter.
              Mr. Quirk.
              Mr. L. N. Roberts.
              Mr. R. A. Robertson, and Friend.
              Mr. John C. Ropes.
              Rev. Scott.
              Mr. G. F. Shepley.
              Mr. John W. Smith.
              Mrs. Smith.
              Mr. Souther.
              Mr. H. Souther.
              Miss M. E. Stone.
              Rev. Father M. J. Supple.
              Mr. A. M. Thomas.
              Mr. Percy W. Thomson.
              Mr. J. L. Thomdike.
              Mr. W. S. Townsend.
              Mr. J. Walworth.
              Miss Welch.
              Miss Wilkins.
              Mrs. W. Willoughby.
              Read more: Passenger List R.M.S. Scythia, Cunard Line, August 1888

              I do not see a “Holmes” on this list.

              Now, the Eastbound Steamship listing is as follows:

              Here is the listing for the June 18, 1887 that was the first of the Eastbound Voyage of the Cunard Line.

              Passenger List, R.M.S. Servia, Cunard Line, June 1887, New York to Liverpool
              Transcribed Saloon Passenger List for the 18 June 1887 Eastbound Voyage of the Servia of the Cunard Line from New York to Liverpool, England. A number of notable passenger were on this voyage including Dr. Emily Blackwell, Victor G Bloede, Charles E. Carryl, George Fiske, William Kelly, Charles Mair, Mary Peck, Tony Pastor, Lord and Lady Stafford, Hugh D. Scott, Annie Wright.

              R.M.S. SERVIA

              CAPT. HORATIO McKay.

              FROM NEW YORK TO LIVERPOOL, JUNE 18, 1887.

              Mr. Robt. F. Armstrong,
              Mr. and Mrs. Geo. W. Arundel,
              Mr. and Mrs. T. F. Agar,
              Mr. J. J Asch,
              Mr. Henry H. Atkins,
              Mr. W. Allison.
              Mr. Geo. Arkley,
              Mrs. Geo. Arkley,
              Mr. John R. Arkley,
              Sister Augustine,
              Mr. Thos. H. Burchell,
              Mrs. H. J. Burchell,
              Miss Emma Burchell,
              Miss Helen Brown,
              Miss Flora Brown.
              Dr. Emily Blackwell,
              Miss Alice Blackwell,
              Miss Anna Blackwell,
              Mr. Alfred Bullion,
              Mr. Victor G Bloede,
              Mr. John Bancroft,
              Mr. and Mrs. Bowron,
              Miss Blake,
              Mrs. Ten Bosch,
              Mrs. F. J Byrnes,
              Miss E. Buxton,
              Miss M. L. Baird,
              Mr. R. Bingham
              Miss Linda Bergan,
              Mr. F Bird,
              Mr. Chas. Brown and Son,
              Miss Isabel Beard,
              Mr. and Mrs. J. H. Bain,
              Mrs. Herbert Beech,
              Mr. Considine,
              Mr. Robert J. Chapman,
              Mr. James Clarkson,
              Mr. W. O. Callender,
              Miss M. P. Callender,
              Mr. Salvador Chamoro,
              Miss Eliz. Cushier,
              Mr. and Mrs. Chas. E Carryl,
              Master Guy W. Carryl,
              Miss Constance Carryl and Maid,
              Miss Bessie Carryl,
              Mr. Charles Champion,
              Mrs. S. N. Carter,
              Miss Mary L. Dunnell,
              Mr. and Mrs. John Duncan,
              Mr. Sam’l Dysart,
              Mr. Alex. Del Mar,
              Mr. John C. Dalton,
              Mr. and Mrs. Ellerton L. Dorr,
              Miss Dorr,
              Miss Elsie Dorr,
              Mr. John Eborall,
              Miss Elliotte,
              Mr. Oliver Ellis,
              Mr. Augustus Eller
              Miss Elkins’ Maid,
              Miss J. Einstein,
              Miss Sallie Elkins.
              Mr. Robert W. Ferguson,
              Mrs. Geo. Fiske,
              Mr. H. C. Field,
              Mr. and Mrs. Chas. J. Fiske,
              Miss Fiske,
              Mr. F. B. Fogg,
              Mr. B. W. Frazier,
              Mrs. Frazier,
              Mr. Kenneth Frazier,
              Mr. A. H Frazier.
              Mr. Herbert Frazier,
              Mies Alice Frazier,
              Miss Isabel Frazier,
              Miss Fasnacht,
              Mr. C. N. Fenner,
              Prof. and Mrs. A. F. Fleet,
              Mrs. Fisk’s Maid,
              Mr. Fearin,
              Mr. Gray,
              Mr. and Mrs. Chas. A. Greeve
              Mr. C. E. Granniss,
              Miss Gaston.
              Mrs. Thos. B. Gresham,
              Mr. Herbert Garside,
              Sir Alex. Galt,
              Lady Galt,
              Miss Gait,
              Mr. Thomas B. Gresham,
              Miss Eugenie L. Gray,
              Mrs. Carrie Hoyt,
              Capt. W. F. Hurndall,
              Miss Helen Hitchcock,
              Mr. W. C. Hall, .Ir.,
              Mr. Egbert C Hambley,
              Mr. Thomas Howe,
              Mrs. Thos. Howe,
              Master Samuel Howe,
              Mrs. A. J. Hardenbergh,
              Mrs. M. L. Hudnut,
              Mrs. C. A. Hill,
              Miss Mabel Hill,
              Mr. C Hunter,
              Mr. E. F. Hatfield,
              E. F. Hatfield,
              M. Hatfield.
              Miss Edith N. Hastings,
              Mr. D. Henning,
              Mr. and Mrs. L. G. Hollberg,
              Mies Margaret Hollberg,
              Miss Mary Hollberg,
              Mr. Francis S. Hinkle and Servant,
              Mr. H. Harrison,
              Mr. W. I. Irwin,
              Mr. S. Isaacs,
              Miss Amy Johnson,
              Mr. and Mrs. Herbert Jackson and Three Children,
              Miss Mary W. Johnson,
              Mr. H. L. Janeway,
              Mr. H. H. Janeway,
              Miss Emily Janeway,
              Mr. Chas. E. Johnson,
              Mr. Jensen,
              Miss Jennie,
              Miss Jones,
              Mr. E. Jennings,
              Mrs. Jerrems,
              Miss May Jerrems,
              Miss Annie Jerrems, Infant and Maid,
              Mr. Sam’l E. Jones,
              Mr. S. Nicholson Kane,
              Mr. Chas. S Knox,
              Mr. Jas. C. Knox,
              Mr. and Mrs. Wm. Kelly,
              Mr. Paul A. Kunkel,
              Miss Kelly,
              Miss Kate Kelly,
              Mrs E. 1W Kemp,
              Miss Kerrison,
              Mr. Roland Kursheedt,
              Rev. Win. Kieran,
              Mrs. Albert Keep,
              Miss Keep,
              Mrs. C. B. King,
              Miss Harriet R. King,
              Miss Alice G. King,
              Mr. Geo. A. Laubach,
              Mr. A. W. Lilienthal,
              Mr. D. Liddle,
              Mrs. D. Liddle,
              Master James Liddle,
              Mr. Louis Loeske.
              Mr. and Mrs. Chas. Lancaster,
              Mr. W. M. Leeper,
              Master D. C. Leeper,
              Mrs. J. N. Leeper,
              Mr. and Mrs. Fred N. Lewis,
              Mr. Hamilton Lewis,
              Mr. F. ‘I’. Luqueer, Jr.,
              Miss Carrie N. Libbey,
              Mrs. Sarah C. Longstreth,
              Miss Helen ‘I’. Longstreth,
              Miss Susan Lovering,
              Miss Caro Lloyd,
              Miss Mary B. Little,
              Rev. Arthur Little, D. D ,
              Mr. F. A. Leland,
              Rev. R. W. Miller,
              E. C. Moore,
              Mr. and Mrs. H. Morley,
              Mr. and Mrs. Edward McFadden,
              Mr. B. R. Merwin,
              Mr. Reginald H. Harden,
              M. Hubert Mitchell,
              Miss Annie McArdle,
              Mr. C. P. MacCarthy,
              Prof. Eugene MacChesney,
              Mr. and Mrs. C. W. McKeehan,
              Master Chas McKeehan,
              Miss Florence McKeehan,
              Mr. John McGuire,
              Mr. Chas. Maguire,
              Mr. John MacCarthy,
              Mr. Walter S Maxwell,
              Mr. Geo. Herbert Mitchell,
              Mr. G. E. Miles,
              Mrs. Munro,
              Mr. Alexander McEwen,
              Miss K. Mann,
              Miss Mary Marsh.
              Miss Lida Morris
              Mr. and Mrs. Chas A. Mair
              Miss Meeker,
              Mr. T. McDougall,
              Miss Mutter,
              Mr. and Mrs. Andrew Miller and Infant,
              Sister Nicholas,
              Miss Louise Neil,
              Miss Adele Norcom,
              Mr. Alex Nicoll,
              Miss G. Ogilvie,
              Mr R. C. Oldfleld,
              Miss Oldfield,
              Mr. C. E. Orr,
              Mr. D. A. Orr,
              Mr. Thos. Orr,
              Mr. and Mrs. Jacob Ock ers,
              Mr. P. B. O’Brien,
              Mr. George O’Hea,
              Miss Lydia L. O’Hea,
              Mr. F. O’Hea,
              Mr. and Mrs. Chas. H. Phillips,
              Mr. D. Parrish,
              Mr. Jos. Packard,
              Mr. C. C. Peck,
              Miss Mary Peck,
              Miss Fannie Peck,
              Mr. C. H. Pix,
              Mr. L. Puddicomb,
              Mr. J. Perriman,
              Mrs. Adeline L. Poillon
              Mr. John Parkinson,
              Mr. and Mrs. Tony Pastor,
              Mr. and Mrs. A. N. Prentiss,
              Mr. James H. Parsons,
              Miss Alice M. Parsons,
              Miss Margaret Parsons,
              Mr. Harry A. Playle,
              Mr. Nathan Powell,
              Mr. Pirie,
              Mrs. Henry A. Playle and infant,
              Mr. and Mrs. Joint Playle
              Miss Ethel Parton,
              Mrs. F. P. Parry,
              Miss K. Parry,
              Mrs. Pattulo,
              Miss M. H. Reid,
              Mrs. M. E. Robinson,
              Miss Julia Ryle,
              Miss Georgie A. Read
              Mrs Wm. Ryle,
              Mr. Earnest Ryle,
              Mr. and Mrs. James P. Ryan,
              Mr. Rockwell,
              Mrs. R. H. Rush,
              Mr. Arnold Ran,
              Master Arnold Rau,
              Master Horatio Rau.
              Master Nicander Rau,
              Miss Rau,
              Miss Anna Ropes,
              Miss Ropes,
              Mr. F. W. Ramsay,
              Miss Mary Richey,
              Miss Caroline A. Russell,
              Mrs. R. G. Rieman.
              Miss Fannie A. Root,
              Miss Helen W. Root,
              Hon. W. R. Sanford,
              Mr. and Mrs. Wm. Strange,
              Miss Blanche Strange,
              Master A. B. Strange,
              Miss Mary E. Sumner,
              Mr. Chas. H. Spang,
              Mr. and Mrs. J. H. Schneider, three children and nurse,
              Mrs. E. Schmidt,
              Mr. C. H. Shinkle,
              Lord and Lady Stafford. Maid and Manservant,
              Miss Alice Starbuck,
              Mr Wm Stubbs,
              Mr. W. H. Staynes,
              Mr. F. W. Spurgin,
              Miss Sue Sadtler,
              Mr. Wilson L. Smith,
              Mrs. Horace J. Smith,
              Mr. H R. Symonds,
              Mr. Chas. H. Symonds,
              Miss Mary Saxton,
              Miss Caroline Stallbohm,
              Mr. and Mrs. Jas. P. Scott,
              Master Hugh D. Scott, Maid, and Man Servant,
              Mr. and Mrs. J. H. Southworth,
              Miss I. M. Southworth,
              Miss Emily Seymour,
              Mr. Jacob Silloway,
              Mr. C L. True.
              Mr. John K. Tibbits,
              Mr. A. Loftus Tottenham, M.P.
              Mrs. A. S. Thomson,
              Mr. C. H. Tindal,
              Mrs. Thayer, Two Children, Two Infants, and Nurse,
              Rev. Chas. M. Tyler,
              Mr. S B. Turner,
              Mr. Benj. Thornton,
              Miss Minnie Thomason,
              Miss Anna Thomason,
              Mr. Frank L. Unger,
              Mr. T. H. Urwick,
              Mr. S. Voelkel
              Mr. and Mrs. Louis Voight,
              Miss Florence Voight,
              Master Lewis Voight,
              Mlle. Bertha Vincens,
              Mlle. Marie Vincens,
              Mr. A. J. Valentine,
              Mr. Thos. C. Watkins,
              Mrs. Newman Williams,
              Master Norman Williams,
              Miss Cornelia Williams,
              Miss Annie Wright,
              Mr. and Mrs Chas. W. Wells and Child,
              Mr Parker L. Walter,
              Mr. Arthur Whitelaw,
              Mr. F. A. Wilber,
              Mrs. F. A. Wilber,
              Mr. and Mrs. Geo. Wiley.
              Mr. W. D. Williams,
              Mrs. Delia Williams,
              Mr. Lee H. Williams,
              Mr. C A. L. Walter,
              Mr. Horace Whitney,
              Miss Walzer,
              Mr. and Mrs. A. Ward,
              Miss Wilcox,
              Mr. Wheeler,
              Mr. Wittekind,
              Mr. II C. Wilson,
              Miss Margaret Wingate,
              Mr. and Mrs. Charles W. Wharton,
              Mr. J. S. L. Wharton,
              Miss M. N. Withington,
              Miss Annie Withington,
              Miss Eloise Wood,
              Mr. H. Wilber,
              Mr. John M. Welsh,
              Mrs. John M. Welsh,
              Col. and Mrs. , Wm. A. Williams,
              Mr. Freman A. Walker,
              col. Henry Walker.
              Mr. Charlton Yarnell,
              Read more: Passenger List, R.M.S. Servia, Cunard Line, June 1887, New York to Liverpool

              There was no “Holmes” located on this passenger listing. There is a “Lovering”, but that was “Susan Lovering” and I’m sure that H.H. Holmes was not dressed as a woman, nor passing himself off as a woman with such a bushy mustache.

              Here is a copy of the Ports of Call for the Cunard Steamship line:

              Passenger List, Cunard Line R.M.S. Etruria – April 1898

              Saloon Passenger List for the 30 April 1898 Westbound Voyage of the Etruria of the Cunard Line from Liverpool, England to New York, Commanded by Captain John FERGUSON.

              Notable Passengers Included: Herbert Wolcott Bowen, E. H. Cozens Hardy, James J. Hill, J. C. Hoagland, Walter Wood.

              Cunard Line

              Inaugurated 4th July, 1840

              LIST OF SALOON PASSENGERS Etruria

              LIVERPOOL TO NEW YORK, 30th APRIL, 1898.

              List of Senior Officers

              Captain: JOHN FERGUSON
              Surgeon: FRANCIS VERDON
              Purser: ANDREW MILLIKEN
              Chief Steward: W. ATTERBY
              List of Saloon Passengers

              Mr. E. G. L. Anderson
              Mr. J. D. Armitage
              Mrs. Armitage
              Mr. H. B. Ashmore
              Mr. T. P. Bacon
              Mr. R. J. Beechinor
              Mr. James L. Bennet
              Mr. G. F. Blake
              Mr. Herbert Wolcott Bowen (U.S. Consul General, Barcelona)
              Mr. John T. Boyt
              Mrs. Boyt
              Mr. E. Brusewitz
              Mrs. Brusewitz
              Mr. A. C. Campbell (Note 1)
              Mr. C. W. Clark
              Mrs. Clark
              Mr. R. D. Clark (Note 1)
              Mr. A. W. Clark
              Mr. E. Couill
              Count Franz. Deym
              Mr. Henry A. La Fetra
              Mr. L. W. Fox
              Mr. A. V. Fraser
              Mrs. Fraser
              Mr. W. C. Gardiner
              Miss J. Gordon
              Mr. F. Guscotte (Note 1)
              Mr. E. H. Cozens Hardy (1873-1956)
              Mr. F. O. Harvey
              Mr. J. J. Hill
              Mr. J. C. Hoagland
              Mr. C. S. Holland
              Mrs. Humphrey
              Miss Humphrey
              Mr. W. E. Killick
              Major Laing
              Mrs. W. V. Lawrence
              Miss Lawrence
              Mr. Austin W. Lord
              Mr. S. Lucas
              Miss C. M. Lucas
              Mr. A. MacCorkindale
              Mr. T. N. Mackinnon
              Mr. A. T. Maitland
              Mr. W. H. Marcon
              Mr. P. L. McLaren
              Mr. R. P. McLea
              Mr. P. Mooney
              Rev. Edward J. Moriarty
              Mr. E. P. Morton
              Mr. J. H. Murray
              Mr. L. Nachmann
              Captain Alfred Paget, R.N. and Manservant
              Mr. J. B. René
              Mr. A. L. Roberts
              Mr. John Roger
              Mr. G. H. Rosing
              Mr. Safford
              Mr. John Schneider
              Mr. W. Seers
              Dr. Stothard
              Dr. Charles E. Smith
              Mr. J. L. Thorndike
              Mrs. C. F. Tucker
              Mr. J. C. Updike
              Mr. R. Thery
              Mr. Walter Wood
              Mr. S. S. Costikyan
              Mr. Thos. Vooght
              Mr. A. J. Townson
              Mr. E. A. Kerbs
              Mr. P. J. Dasey
              Note 1: Line was drawn through name – typically, this means the passenger was booked but did not board this vessel.

              Passenger Recapitulation : Saloon 70; Second Cabin 105; Steerage 331; Total 506

              Reconciliation of Saloon Passengers: 72 Names Listed + Manservant – 3 Not on board = 70

              Read more: Passenger List, Cunard Line R.M.S. Etruria – April 1898

              Still no “Holmes” listed.

              The Cunard Steam Ship Company Steamer Etruria

              It will thus be seen that these ships were not an advance upon the Great Western, but were even slightly smaller, with about the same coal consumption and with rather less speed.

              The Hibernia and Cambria followed in 1843 and 1845, 530 tons larger in displacement, with 1,040 indicated horsepower, and steaming about 9 1/2 knots per hour. The plan (shown on page 521) gives an idea of these vessels which is far from fulfilling the ideas of the present Atlantic traveler, who considers himself a much-injured person if he has not electric lights and bells, baths ad libitum, and a reasonable amount of cubic space in which to bestow him.

              Read more: Great Eastern, Britannic, Etruria, Champagne – The Development of the Steamship – 1887 – Part 4

              How Fast Could A Steamship Cross the Ocean?

              The first so-called “ocean greyhound” brought out by the Cunard Line, was the Acadia, which made her maiden voyage some eighty years ago. A comparison of her size and speed with those steamships that have subsequently made ”fast reputations” is interesting. The following is a list. It will be noted that no steamship has made a speed record since the Mauretania made hers in 1908 and 1909.

              Year and Vessel





              1841 Acadia Cunard 250 1,834 11.25
              1848 Europa Cunard 230 1,155 10.75
              1851 Baltic Collins 282 2,860 13.25
              1863 Scotia Cunard 379 3,870 14.
              1872 Adriatic White Star 420 3,888 14.5
              1873 Baltic White Star 420 4,500 15.
              1875 City of Berlin Inman 488 5,491 15.25
              1876 Britannic White Star 455 5,004 16.
              1884 Oregon Guion 500 7,375 16.25
              1887 Etruria Cunard 501 8,128 19.50
              1888 La Bretagne French 510 8,300 19.60
              1889 City of Paris Inman 560 10,674 20.5
              1892 City of Paris Inman 560 10,674 21.
              1892 La Touraine French 520 8,429 21.20
              1893 Campania Cunard 620 12,950 21.88
              1894 Lucania Cunard 620 12,952 22.
              1897 Kaiser. Wilhelm der Grosse North German Lloyd . 649 14,349 23
              1900 Deutschland Hamburg 686 16,502 23.51
              1903 Kaiser Wilhelm II. North German Lloyd 706 19,500 23.58
              1908 Lusitania Cunard 785 32,500 25.88
              1908 Mauretania Cunard 790 32,500 26.06
              Record Transatlantic Voyages




              New York to Queenstown 1909. 4d.13h.41m
              New York to Cherbourg 1922 5 d. 8h.10m.
              New York to Plymouth 1922 4d.23h.15m.
              Queenstown to New York 1910. 4d.10h.21m
              Cherbourg to New York 1922 5d. 7h.33m.
              Southampton to New York via Cherbourg 1922. 5d.15h.55m

              The record from New York to Havre was made by the S.S. France, of the French Line – 5 days 17 hours. From N. Y. to Southampton the record of 5 days. 17 hours 8 minutes was made by the Kaiser Wilhelm. der Grosse, of the North German Lloyd Line, in 1897, and that from New York to Naples by the Deutschland, Hamburg-American Line, 7 days 16 hours 44 minutes in 1904.

              In speed, both the Deutschland and the Kaiser Wilhelm surpass the Cunard boats; in size, the Oceanic surpasses everything. Over all, the White Star boat measures 704 feet; in speed, she can reel off with clock-like regularity about 20.5 knots an hour, as against the 21.90 knots of the Lucania. The best hourly average of the Kaiser Wilhelm is 22.6 knots an hour; that of the Deutschland, as has already been said, is no less than 23.36, or nearly a knot an hour better. To the great Hamburg American flier must be given the title of queen of the seas.

              The Deutschland’s fastest passage from New York to Plymouth was made last September 1901, her time being five days, seven hours, and thirty-eight minutes — about one fifth of the time taken by the Savannah. During this test of energy and speed, she developed 36,913 horsepower at a daily expenditure of 572 tons of coal.

              The record for the fastest day’s run was made by the Mauretania, of the Cunard Line, in January 1911-676 knots, or 27.04 knots per hour.

              Earlier Transatlantic Records

              The following table shows the way the ocean passage was gradually cut down by the older steamships:




              1856 Persia. 9d.1h.45m
              1866 Scotia 8d.2h.48m.
              1869 City of Brussels 7d.22h.3m.
              1873 Baltic 7d.20h.9m.
              1875 City of Berlin 7d.15h.48m.
              1876 Germanic 7d.11h.37m.
              1877 Britannic 7d.10h.53m.
              1880 Arizona 7d.7h.23m.
              1882 Alaska 6d.18h.37m.
              1884 Oregon 6d.11h.9m.
              1884 America 6d.10h.
              1887 Umbria 6d.4h.42m.
              1888 Etruria 6d.1h.55m.
              1891 Majestic 5d.18h.8m.
              1891 Teutonic 5d.16h.31m.
              1892 City of Paris 5d.14h.24m.
              1893 Campania 5d.12h.7m.
              1894 Lucania 5d.7h.23m.
              Read more: How Fast Could A Steamship Cross the Ocean?

              As you can see that the RMS Cunard Etruria Steam ship line could make the voyage in 6 days, 1 hour and 55 minutes. If the ship left on August 30, 1888, that ship would not arrive in Europe until September 5, 1888. That was after the “Jack the Ripper” murder of Mary Anne Nichols that happened on August 30, 1888. If Holmes had used an alias name and did board the ship, he would not have been in London until September 5, 1888, making him 6 days late for the official first “Jack the Ripper” murder.

              Here is the timeline of the “Jack the Ripper” Murders:

              On the 3rd of April 1888 local gangs attack Emma Smith, a local prostitute, on the junction of Osborn Street and Brick Lane. Although she definitely was not a victim of Jack the Ripper she is the first name on the White chapel Murders file that later included the murders by Jack the Ripper.
              5 April 1888 Emma Smith dies from the injuries she sustained in the attack.
              7th June 1888. Detective Sergeant William Thicke testifies in court against local burglar George Neighbor. Later that year Thicke will play a major role in the hunt for Jack the Ripper. However, his testimony on this occasion is of interest because it illustrates the harsh realities of policing the district where the murders took place.
              7 August 1888 another prostitute Martha Turner is found stabbed to death on a landing of George Yard Buildings.
              31 August 1888 the body of Mary Anne Nichols, who is commonly held to be Jack the Ripper’s first victim, is found at 3.40am in Buck’s Row White Chapel
              1st-4th September. The police begin questioning the neighborhood’s prostitutes. They learn about a character who the prostitutes have nicknamed Leather Apron who has been extorting money from them for the past 12 months.
              5th September. The Star newspaper publishes a write-up on Leather Apron, which causes the first murmurs of anti-Semitism in the district.
              8 September 1888 the second Jack the Ripper victim, Annie Chapman, was found in the back yard of 29 Hanbury Street.
              10 September 1888 Mr George Lusk, together with several other local business men, founds the Mile End Vigilance Committee, hoping to assist the police with their endeavors to catch the murderer.
              10 September 1888 John Pizer, whom Sergeant Thick maintains is recognized as “Leather Apron,” is arrested. He can provide alibis for the two recent murders and is released.
              27 September 1888 a missive addressed to ‘Dear Boss” arrives at the Central News Agency. It is signed JACK THE RIPPER, a name which will turn the unknown miscreant into a world famous legend.
              30 September 1888. The killer commits two murders in less than 1 hour. At 1am the body of Elizabeth Stride’s is found in Berner Street, off Commercial Road; then at 1:45am the body of Catherine Eddowes is discovered in Mitre Square in the City of London. This means that another Police force, the City Police, now join into the search for Jack the Ripper.
              1st October 1888. The police make the Jack the Ripper letter public.
              6th October 1888. The Central News Agency receive another letter that is signed Jack the Ripper. The police ask them not make this missive public.
              16 October 1888. Mr George Lusk gets a letter that is addressed “FROM HELL.” It contains half a kidney. There is press speculation that it belonged to Catherine Eddowes.
              9th November 1888. 25 year Old Mary Kelly is found dead in Dorset Street Spitalfields. She is believed by many to have been Jack the Ripper’s last victim.
              As stated earlier there were possibly other “Jack the Ripper” murders that had occurred after the murder of Mary Kelly.'


              • #53
                Dear A.P.

                Thanks for this effort...

                Not that I think there's a snowball in hell chance that Holmes was the Ripper....but Holmes was not averse to using aliases.


                • #54
                  Long winded, I could have just put the url up, How, but didn't think of it at the time. Hell could always freeze over I guess. From Holmes biography:

                  'In 1888 Holmes was hired as a chemist at a popular drugstore located on the northwest corner of 63rd and Wallace in the later-annexed suburb of Englewood, on the South Side of Chicago.

                  In 1888, Holmes bought a vacant lot across Wallace from the pharmacy business and began to build a "hotel" which took up the whole block. Holmes later named his building the World's Fair Hotel, in his bid to capitalize on and exploit travellers to the nearby upcoming 1893 Chicago Exposition. Holmes' massive and unconventional building became known to the neighborhood as "The Castle."

                  It is amazing how this sort of garbage goes around and around. I get giddy with it.


                  • #55
                    Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
                    Dear A.P.

                    Thanks for this effort...

                    Not that I think there's a snowball in hell chance that Holmes was the Ripper....but Holmes was not averse to using aliases.
                    Yes but if he was busy doing something in Chicago at the time, as AP indicates, he wasn't travelling across the Atlantic using an alias.

                    But we all know that.
                    Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
           Hear sample song at

                    Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
                    Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at


                    • #56
                      Dear A.P.

                      Thanks for that material...this way people can digest it for themselves.

                      One serious obstacle for those Holmes-as-Ripper people WON'T be able to overcome is the absolute fact that Holmes coordinated the construction of the house of horrors....he was present at all times...and constantly changed work crews in order that no one other than himself knew the entire blueprint/scheme of the house.

                      And yes, this Holmes as Ripper nonsense is little different than the nonsense of certain painters being the killer.


                      • #57
                        I get the overwhelming feeling that all of us are demeaning ourselves by even responding to this notion, so why don't we just quit?


                        • #58
                          Originally posted by A.P. Wolf View Post
                          I get the overwhelming feeling that all of us are demeaning ourselves by even responding to this notion, so why don't we just quit?
                          No I don't agree. We have a duty to be the "Truth Squad" when people spout nonsense or unsupported allegations that don't match reality.
                          Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
                 Hear sample song at

                          Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
                          Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at


                          • #59
                            Fair comment, Chris. I'm trying to upload a photo for your edification but can't seem to do it, has the system changed or what?


                            • #60
                              I'm reserving judgement until I read the book. If he is able to present documentary evidence putting Holmes in London in the right months, then that in itself would be an achievement.

                              Yours truly,

                              Tom Wescott