HH Holmes a Ripper suspect?

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

I see Jeff Mudgett is a forum member and I would like to invite him to post on the subject if possible

Please correct me if I'm wrong in any way

The premise is that HH Holmes travelled to London while his "Murder Castle" was under construction in 1888

Also that "henchmen" were heavily involved in his crimes

That his interest on hormones led him to seek out victims on the street from whom he would attempt to remove their ovaries

That he wrote some significant Ripper letters

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

I would give this theory a big thumbs down

Mudgett is a completely different type of killer

I doubt very much he would leave the construction of his Castle in the hands of anyone else

If he was going to harvest some organs, he would not have to travel to Whitechapel and mutilate women on the street with police nearby, and I doubt he would have had the nerve to do so

Mudgett was in my opinion a very cowardly killer whereas the Ripper is a hands-on man

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

PS

Forgot to mention that in Bloodstains, Jeff says that Holmes had a deformed little finger

That's the third time I've come across mention of a deformed little finger which was mentioned on the JD Lampard thread

Apparently a contemporary handwriting expert stated that he thought the writer of the main Ripper letters (not sure which but I think he at least refers to the "Dear Boss") had a deformed little finger on his right hand...

[Howard Brown]

My answer is "No", Nemo.

"No" to yet another stab at solving the Case using someone, in this instance, who most definitely would not and did not leave Chicago during the construction of his hotel.
It's an established fact that as soon as one section of the hotel was built, Holmes would sack those builders, hire a new one , wait until their project was completed, and repeat the process of releasing that crew.
Done in order that no one entity other than Holmes knew the precise layout and purposes of those sections.

I hate to be rude to someone who may, in the future, have something of value to the field and the Forums. This is why I deleted approximately 10 other planned posts directed towards Mr. Mudgett for the Rip 121 thread last night and wound up not posting on that thread..

Individuals who are newcomers to Ripperology...as we all were at one time...should know, however, that people have recieved rude awakenings whenever they attempt to insinuate or propose individuals based on flimsy analysis.

Even before getting into Mr. Mudgett's proposition about Holmes and since I know that not everyone appreciates all the things I do....and that some might enjoy reading or contemplating a new theory as to who the Ripper was......I'd like to have something established.

Mr. Mudgett states in the latest issue of The Rip :



and here, the Rip editor provided this line....


I think we'd all like to see some verification of this connection before we take it as an article of faith that Mr. Mudgett is, in fact, the great great grandson of Mudgett.

Several of us ( Mike Covell, myself, etc...) on The Forums have had experiences with individuals, some fly by nights, some experienced and knowledgeable Ripperologists, who thought they could express something as fact without having to provide the source. We prefer having the source before we jump to judgment, thank you.

Mr. Mudgett proposed ( as previously mentioned by Nemo earlier) that Holmes could have made it to London during the skein. Well..actually, Mr. Mudgett is saying that he was definitely in London because its the sine qua non of his entire theory.
His fictional Holmes ( in Bloodstains) is credited with saying :



Where is there evidence that in real life, as in a diary, Holmes considered this prior to the murders ?

Again, H.H. Holmes was present during the construction of his fortress of evil from beginning to end... specifically since he did not want anyone else to be able to reflect on what some of the rooms were inevitably intended for.

You don't have to be a relative of H.H.Holmes to know that rather obvious fact.

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

I've just read "Bloodstains"

Well, where to begin

Think Maybrick Diary and Brian Porter's Journal series mixed in with a bit of Silence of the Lambs and Kolchak's Night Stalker, with a smattering of yours Truly JtR

I'll quote a bit from the authors note at the end

He says the post office building currently on the spot of the murder castle should be demolished as it is an evil place, and that the area should be scientifically examined - quote "If done properly, artifacts will be found possibly proving many of the assertions made in Bloodstains"

I suppose he is referring to the tortures and rapes he alleges. Or possibly Holmes having been really a genius, experimenting with DNA, hormones and stem cell research in the 1880's - culminating in him producing cell lines and tissue from ovaries which enabled him to live 99 years or more (he hypnotised the priest and guard on the day of his execution, and dressed the guard as himself who took his place at the gallows). Maybe he is referring to the link with Zodiac (yes, Zodiac)

Also, the many strange incidents such as fires or suspicious deaths of people connected with the case - you guessed it - tortured and killed by Holmes

This includes him "having a word" with the judge who had sentenced him, changing his attitude toward reform in the judicial system (this guy was lucky and Holmes let him free)

Possibly he is referring to Holmes selling medical skeletons in London 1888 (with sculls (sic)) or approaching people asking for ovaries to be posted to the US

If the fiction reflects the supposed truth, JtR was Holmes+ accomplice, who at one point gave Holmes the signal to come and inspect Chapman's ovaries before disguising the true reason for mutilation with other sensational slashes

etc etc etc

I can't do better than quote the last word in the book as regards the truth of this or any other assertion regarding Holmes

"...the concrete grave said to contain the mass murderer needs to be excavated and DNA tests run on the remains to verify the corpse's true identity. I will gladly provide tissue for comparison purposes. If it is Holmes, I will publicly apologize; if it isn't, our nation needs to make amends

As pure fiction this might have had a chance, but...need I say more

[Howard Brown]

Thank you for the critique, Neems.

Nina and I noticed that there's a link online where Mr. Mudgett states ( more or less) that he is drawn to the conclusion he is a relation of Holmes...but this is without verification or documentation.

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

I could have predicted that...

[Howard Brown]

Whoops !

I neglected to mention that Nina Brown researched H.H. Holmes' descendants ( two children, not one child ) and there is a Jeff Mudgett in the line of descent who fits the bill. Nina did this 4 days ago and I forgot to mention it until now.



He is descended from Mudgett's son, Robert L. Mudgett and Alexandra Gilbert, who was R.L. Mudgett's first wife.

[Howard Brown]

Bump Up

I got punched by you know who for even asking her to put up the lineage since there are still living people on that list. My mistake.

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

I don't see how Jeff has evidence that Holmes travelled to England on a certain ship when he admits himself that Holmes used many aliases and none of these even appear in the passenger lists

He hints that there are extant reports from the 1880's that an American was requesting ovaries from medical establishments and also that an American was selling skeletons in London

I doubt very much we will ever see a factual book putting forward the case

If we do, I doubt there will be any significant evidence within it

I'd still be interested in any "factual" evidence from Jeff, not circumstantial mind, but some real evidence connecting Holmes with the WM, or even London 1888

Just one incontrovertible point will do fine

And let's get a couple of things out in the open while we're at it. Is the case being put forward that Holmes hypnotised his way out of a hanging, the guard taking his place? Is Holmes a genius with knowledge and experience of stem-cell and hormonal research pre-1888?

..or is the suggestion just that Holmes was the Ripper, and the rest of "Bloodstains" complete fantasy? - Because I see Bloodstains as a testing ground for a massively flawed theory, with the suggestions able to be altered at a later date if they are investigated and found wanting, with the excuse that it was just fiction

Holmes is one of the most sinister and heartless criminals in history, he doesn't need exaggerating

So Jeff, if you are reading this, please be so kind as to put forward some factual evidence clearly and succinctly so that we all know what you are really claiming

Better still, where's the real book? I'll buy a copy

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

There's a few details in regard to Holmes in this pdf preview - including what looks like a sample of his handwriting

http://www.strangecase.com/images/preview121105.pdf

I also came across these musical scores based on his words (!)

http://libbylarsen.com/index.php?contentID=241&profileID=1613&startRange

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

This is worth a read if you haven't seen it before - how not to research...

http://www.wfmz.com/download/2010/0420/23210949.pdf

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

Bump

For anyone interested in discussing the possibilities, there are a few points to ponder in connection with Holmes' execution

The following fit the fictional scenario laid out in the "Bloodstains" ie Holmes hypnotised his guard and priest and substituted the guard for himself at the gallows, the guard not dying immediately due to the hangman's calculations being incorrect for the body weight

Holmes considered himself an accomplished hypnotist

Some victims and accomplices carried out actions that appear to indicate they were mesmerised / controlled by Holmes

Holmes requested his coffin be encased in concrete so that he could not be exhumed and dissected

His neck broke when hanged, though his heart beat for 15 mins more him appearing to have choked

Within a few years of the case, various deaths of people connected with the case, through disease, accident and the like occurred, provoking rumours that Holmes had the power to return from the grave and exact revenge

For example, The only items to survive a fire in the District Attorney's building connected with Holmes were a a picture of Holmes and a framed document related to the case

Against much of Holmes' own story and statements, including the goings on in the Murder Castle, is his propensity to lie and exaggerate

Holmes was described as the "Criminal of the Century", post JtR

[Howard Brown]

For those in need of a laugh or two.

This fellow is convinced he's solved the murders...

http://wfmz.img.entriq.net/htm/PopUpPlayer-v4.htm?articleID=1380384&v=b

[m_w_r]

Hi How,

I remember Mark Potts's article in the WSJ, but not because it was particularly good, in my view. As I recall, there's quite a lot of handwriting stuff, where one is urged to see similarities in samples which, to me, appear quite different. He's also posted on the WS1888 Facebook page, and has been given some reasonable advice there, but whether this has affected his thinking might be a different matter.

Regards,

Mark