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  • Jessie Ann Brodie – sister of WWB?

    I have come across a record of the birth of Jessie Anne Brodie born to William Brodie “supervisor”, and his wife (nee Margaret Collins). Jessie was born in Limerick in 1851

    These facts point to William being the William who was the father of Thomas Collins Brodie:
    o William was a “supervisor” – we know (see other posts) that he was in the “excise” business – and “supervisor” could I suppose be a similar / the same role
    o His wife was Margaret Collins and she could have given her surname to Thomas Collins Brodie, who was, of course, one of her sons.

    Further I would point out that WWB was born in 1858

    Why is that relevant? I have been concerned that WWB was born 11 years after James the oldest known son of William – and WWB would therefore have been born when William was 41 which seems quite an age.

    However, if Jessie was William’s daughter, she would have been born when he was already 35 – and there’s less of an age-stretch between 35 and 41 (the age gap between Jessie and WWB) compared with 30 to 41 (the age gap between James and WWB).

    Thus, the presence of Jessie Ann Brodie could suggest that WWB was indeed the brother of Thomas Collins and James, as he claimed

    I guess work needs to be done to provide evidence that Jessie Brodie and William Brodie were siblings

    Comment


    • Was WWB the actual brother of Thomas Collins Brodie and James Brodie?

      In my first post #172 I was sceptical that WWB was the birth brother of Thomas Collins Brodie and James Brodie. I am about to change my mind:

      Here are the arguments in favour of their brotherhood:
      o WWB claimed that they were his brothers
      o He was at their premises on 16 July 1889 (as confirmed by Walter Slater, the Brodie’s manager, when questioned by Sgt Godley three days later). This was only one day after WWB returned from South Africa – and the chances that he just happened to pitch up as a person unknown to Thomas Collins Brodie are very small.
      o Thus, WWB almost certainly knew the brothers before he left for South Africa.
      o That would have given him two “Windows” to get to know them.
      o The first was the period in 1888 between his release from jail and his departure for South Africa. This was just two weeks – and again, I would have thought it too short a period in which to get to meet the brothers for the first time.
      o The other window was from the time of WWB’s birth until his conviction in 1877 – and this points to WWB actually being a brother.
      o The birth of Jessie Brodie in 1851 reduces the distance in time between the births of WWB and his next oldest sibling and makes it reasonable (as opposed to unreasonable) that he was the son of William and Margaret Brodie, known to be parents also of Thomas Collins and James
      o There is a family likeness in the pictures unearthed by Debs

      The arguments against are:
      o The age of William (the father) at the birth of WWB – he would have been 41. But see above for the counter
      o The character of WWB was unlike that of the rest of the family – the daughters of William married clergymen while Thomas Collins Brodie and James Brodie seem to have been reasonably upright businessmen (even if they had a following out over the breach of covenant).

      So, the evidence is swinging in favour of brotherhood

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Peter Backman View Post
        Jessie Ann Brodie – sister of WWB?

        I have come across a record of the birth of Jessie Anne Brodie born to William Brodie “supervisor”, and his wife (nee Margaret Collins). Jessie was born in Limerick in 1851

        These facts point to William being the William who was the father of Thomas Collins Brodie:
        o William was a “supervisor” – we know (see other posts) that he was in the “excise” business – and “supervisor” could I suppose be a similar / the same role
        o His wife was Margaret Collins and she could have given her surname to Thomas Collins Brodie, who was, of course, one of her sons.

        Further I would point out that WWB was born in 1858

        Why is that relevant? I have been concerned that WWB was born 11 years after James the oldest known son of William – and WWB would therefore have been born when William was 41 which seems quite an age.

        However, if Jessie was William’s daughter, she would have been born when he was already 35 – and there’s less of an age-stretch between 35 and 41 (the age gap between Jessie and WWB) compared with 30 to 41 (the age gap between James and WWB).

        Thus, the presence of Jessie Ann Brodie could suggest that WWB was indeed the brother of Thomas Collins and James, as he claimed

        I guess work needs to be done to provide evidence that Jessie Brodie and William Brodie were siblings

        Nice summaries, Peter.
        Brodie may have a link to Limerick as well as the Scots Guards?!
        I think it was Jerry Dunlop who once asked me if it was possible MJK knew Brodie and he was her 'brother' (some researchers have suggested that MJK's brother in the Scots Guards may have actually been her lover) in that regiment.

        P.S. I have three children, their ages are 32, 20 and 10!

        Comment


        • Why is that relevant? I have been concerned that WWB was born 11 years after James the oldest known son of William – and WWB would therefore have been born when William was 41 which seems quite an age.
          I see no obstacle here - we have two sets of twin girls born nineteen years apart - and never mind me, the missus was 41 when the second set came along!

          Dave

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Cogidubnus View Post
            I see no obstacle here - we have two sets of twin girls born nineteen years apart - and never mind me, the missus was 41 when the second set came along!

            Dave
            U.S. President John Tyler, born 1790, president in the 1840s, has two GRANDCHILDREN alive today! I was skeptical of that headline but it makes sense and I personally am in a similar situation.

            President Tyler married twice, the second time in middle age to a much younger woman who gave birth to a son. That son also married twice, repeating the pattern with a second marriage. Grandsons were born around the 1930s.

            My own life is a little like that because my parents were older when I came along and I have married much older men so I actually identify better with life at the turn of the last century and am the keeper of some interesting family history from then and before. Essentially I am a member of the old generation though I am still reasonably young.
            The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Jerry Dunlop View Post
              Referring to the Ultimate Sourcebook, again, he was released from prison on Aug 22, 1888 (not 23rd as I stated above) and took residence at 2 Harvey Buildings, Strand. After sailing to Africa on Sept 6th, 1888 he returned to London in July of 1889 and again took residence at 2 Harvey Buildings, Strand.

              Remember, 2 Harvey Buildings, Strand was also the residence of John Arnold involved in the Pinchin Torso case.
              A bit of (marginal?) information:

              2 Harvey's Buildings (as Jerry has pointed out elsewhere) was on the north side of the Strand almost opposite Charing Cross Station

              It was an all-male lodging house with 37 inhabitants in 1881, 31 in 1891 and 27 in 1901

              Ages of inhabitants were in the range 24 to 69 and occupations varied but of the tailor, carman, plumber, waiter type in 1881 and 1901. There were no records of occupation (or age) in 1891 with the census form making reference to "Ages as per slip attached"

              And a John Arnold was an inhabitant in 1891

              The other premises in Harvey's Buildings had mixed gender and age populations:
              - No 1 had 19 inhabitants in 1881, 9 in 1891 and 15 in 1901
              - No 3 had 5 inhabitants in 1881 and 1891, and none in 1901
              - No 4 had 17 inhabitants in 1881, and none thereafter
              - No 5 had 29 inhabitants in 1881, and none thereafter

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                I have three children, their ages are 32, 20 and 10!
                Wow! I didn't know that. You don't look more than 30 yourself!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
                  Wow! I didn't know that. You don't look more than 30 yourself!
                  Shame, I thought I could easily pass for 25 in my latest Facebook profile pic

                  cakebread.JPG

                  Comment

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