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  • The Royal Conspiracy Is Alive & Well.....

    Its baaaaack !

    http://www.lizaoconnor.com/2016/01/a...certainty.html
    To Join JTR Forums :
    Contact Howard@jtrforums.com

  • #2
    Hi Howard,

    The Royal Conspiracy is the beast that will not die.

    I suggest she reads chapters 15 and 16 of "Deconstructing Jack: The Secret History of the Whitechapel Murders."

    Regards,

    Simon

    Comment


    • #3
      Maybe there has come a time when the Royal Conspiracy de-bunking becomes a case of researchers just propping up old ideas...it's been around for a while now.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi Debra,

        Which old ideas might they be?

        Regards,

        Simon

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
          Hi Debra,

          Which old ideas might they be?

          Regards,

          Simon
          I was just thinking it must be a good few years since you de-bunked the Royal conspiracy, Simon? Doesn't that make your ideas old hat and fair game for contradicting by now?

          Comment


          • #6
            The Old Guard debunker to be debunked.

            Comment


            • #7
              Good evening San Fran,

              Originally posted by San Fran

              ...which will soon be the greatest conspiracy thread of all.

              Mary Jane Wilson

              Thanks to Roy Corduroy.
              Simon is my Daddy

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post

                Aaaargh... let me find a rock to hide under!!!!!
                Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
                https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

                Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
                Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I'm waiting for a movie starring Tom Hanks running around London with some bit of stuff solving riddles and getting beat up outside the Ten Bells. Eventually breaking into Buck Palace and pretending to be a fathers for justice campaigner whilst nicking conclusive proof of a Royal connection to JTR. Too far fetched? No chance.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    A couple of more thoughts on this movie. The British cop will be played by Cumberbitch, girls find him attractive, I know. We need a bad guy in the form of a ripperologist, played by Howard Brown himself. He could be by 'coincidence' be on holiday in London. He has the bit of stuff under his influence due to his enormous sexual prowess and wants Hanks to bring down the monarchy as he considers himself the rightful heir to the throne.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      How much does a connexion to Dutch royals mean? Lots of us are related to royals here and there but a generation or two later it doesn't mean much. The Morgenstern brothers ended up in England as gas stokers and skinners.

                      Nevertheless it is more fascinating genealogy which will add a great deal to our understanding of all these people.

                      I have this idea the "gentleman" who took Mary to France could have been Adrianus M. or a friend of his. Alternately, instead of "plunging" into the East End I think Mary could have had a reference from the "gentleman" which introduced her to the Morgensterns. Whoever was the "gentleman" I think he had high regard for Mary and bought her the "costly dresses" and that is why she was entitled to possess them. (As opposed to having been a dress lodger whose debts would prevent her from owning much of anything.) If those dresses ever existed, but she did seem to have a black velvet outfit of skirt/bodice/jacket.
                      Last edited by Anna Morris; March 3, 2017, 11:40 AM. Reason: add
                      The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        San Fran: I came across a Dutch name of van Maren. I assume the "van" connotes a level of nobility. I mention this here because I do believe the one Morgenstern brother was named Maran.

                        I once researched the name Maran out of curiosity and never could find an origin for it. It was the name of the father of Marie du Plessis (La Dame aux Camelias). He was thought to have some gypsy background and as I recall the family was from Normandy.

                        Anyway I wonder if Morgenstern got the name from a van Maren in the family background.

                        A royal connexion might bring more attention to Mary but also the tragedy and horror of her end can stand on its own. If we ever find out who she really was, royal or commoner, there is a heck of a story to be told. There are so many angles to work. I have pondered a lot lately on the fact that she must have had absolutely NO idea who was Jack. She had Barnett keep her up to date on the news, she had lots of friends, she knew the area and people in it. She must have discussed the murders with all her female friends and they must have had some ideas, gossip, intuitions. Yet in the end she invited Jack to her room, undressed and got into bed, apparently oblivious to danger. That tells us a lot.
                        The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Contemporary reports indicate that MJK was more accomplished than other women of her status. I use the word accomplished instead of educated because it appears she may not have been able to read. (Though I have pondered if she had poor eye sight and could not read the small print in the papers of those days. Without reading glasses I couldn't find my computer screen!)

                          There are implications she came from a better background, whether the "well to do" family in Cardiff, Dr. WWD's lady's maid or some vague connexion to royalty.

                          I don't think Americans can really understand the class system so I have some questions. Let's say MJK had been a lady's maid. I assume that's working class. Would that work experience make her appear VERY much different from other women in the East End? Or might that have given her accomplishments that would make her appear talented, artistic, better educated than most of the others?

                          My point is to understand the basic impression Mary gave to those around her. If she had much experience with upper class life, such as being a lady's maid, would she have been able to blend into East End life as she did, or would those around her think she had airs or acted better than her station as an unfortunate in the slums? If she gave that impression, would her associates in the East End have been curious or asked her about her background? If so I would assume some tales would filter down to us, Mary explaining to friends about this or that.

                          Another way to look at it though, is her age. Jack's other victims were middle aged women of various backgrounds who became unfortunates. Old Shakespeare in New York was educated but had fallen into a bad life. Because Mary was young, surely any special attributes she may have had would have been more noticeable and made more of an impression?

                          Or does it make more sense that she was the daughter of a labourer, a pretty girl who went wrong, who had some talents but no special background?
                          The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by San Fran
                            Exactly, Anna. More interesting for us and more interesting for everyone. Not many would care about Mary Jane Kelly if she was just a "common whore" or about her baby for the same reason, she's common, and the father is her blue collar boyfriend.

                            Now they'll care.
                            Maybe true for many, but not true for everyone. There are a few who pursue historical context and find that interesting enough, rather than fantasy. In fact, I'd say the former actually find the real useful information.
                            Best Wishes,
                            Cris Malone
                            ______________________________________________
                            "Objectivity comes from how the evidence is treated, not the nature of the evidence itself. Historians can be just as objective as any scientist."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by San Fran
                              Tragedy and horror you can find anywhere. Add a royal like Princess Diana and you got a real story.

                              I present a Mary Kelly candidate who cannot be debunked and she happens to have had a kid and then happens to be a blueblood. It's all based on proven facts of a real person whose candidacy cannot be dismissed.

                              What needs to be dismissed is the old party line. Talk about deja vu!

                              I don't get why nobody says anything when Wikipedia says Mary Kelly came from Ireland and Casebook says she was 25 born c. 1863, etc. when there is no evidence for either, unless you believe someone's eyes and ears are test tubes. (Casebook goes on to say the rest of the story is only "conflicting and embellished" suggesting it's largely true. Selective Ripperology!)
                              I wouldn't waste my time trying to correct Wikipedia. A classic female author has had her books translated into dozens of "languages, including Braille," according to Wiki. After reading that I knew I needed to be VERY careful with anything on Wiki.

                              Mary's story stands alone for pure pathos. I think the contemporary press emphasized her remorse because her demise brought a lot of sympathy. I don't think we have a good picture of her life. Perhaps she did not "plunge" into the East End. Possibly she began with a job, perhaps for a Morgenstern. Perhaps she had plans and a future. I am sure she did get discouraged at times but she was still young and I'd bet she still had dreams and hopes for her future. I really do think Joe B. wanted to marry her and I also think she was thinking about that possibility while she was singing.
                              The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

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